The Public Policy/Administration Jobs Blog provides a forum for job-seekers seeking jobs in public affairs, public policy, and public management programs.
Friday, September 04, 2009
Discussion of 2009-2010 Job Market
Sorry about my lax moderating/blog maintenance, here's a new space for this year's market
Job at UT Arlington just announced on APSA. Also a job at UT Dallas. And Texas Tech (at Associate level). And Baylor. And University of Houston. And the University of Texas at San Antonio is looking for a Dean. What is going on in Texas?
I hate this trend of magically disappearing and reappearing positions. OSU is a good example. For one thing, it can't be that hard to fill them - it's PA/policy, not biochemistry. For another, applicants are left wondering whether they should should apply for the same position a second, third or even fourth time. They've no idea where they stand.
Exactly how Fing hard is it send a letter that states in some nice way that one of these has occurred: 1) search failed; please apply again. 2) search failed; please do not apply again.
Stop your whining. Hiring in a university is a complex process. A provost might pull a position as an immediate response to political pressures but then relent and give the position back if the department can make a good enough case for it later on when the budget picture has improved. The bureaucracy behind getting positions, pools, and offers approved is often extensive... keeping the pool "intact" until the end of the hiring cycle is the safest strategy for a department to take - even if the position has been pulled at some point in the process.
So let's assume you applied last year and you are considering applying again this year... You are asking for some kind of notification that you should or shouldn't apply? Do you think that the recruitment committee is going to contact all of the candidates that they did not like last year to tell them not to apply this year? Seriously? Why should they? You're all going to apply again anyway, and if you are too lazy to spend the hour it takes to tailor the CV and letter to their department, then they probably don't want you anyway.
The market in PA might be kind of tough right now, but consider the Yale PhD in Comp Lit who winds up teaching high school, or the Harvard PhD in History who makes less than a secretary teaching a 5-5 load at two community colleges. The PA market is GOLDEN compared to most fields. The ridiculous whining on this blog is emblematic of how spoiled we've become.
A fine dissertation, but yes, search committees should notify applicants of the status of a search at the end of the academic year. It's called basic professional decorum - defending academia's poor personnel practices helps us no more than does what you call "whining." And you want to talk about laziness - that our lives don't suck as much as those in other fields is no reason for lazy committees not to send an e-mail.
I think it's important to note that many institutions have had lines "frozen," which is much more uncertain than when lines are pulled. Sometimes a line is frozen in October and opened up again in January. Sometimes a provost leaves a department on the hook for a while and won't let them know if they'll be able to search again this year or next.
While I agree that some notification of a search being abandoned would be beneficial, at least in *some* cases, the departments don't even know what's going to happen.
Right. I second the comment on the whining, too... How much time do you think we all have? How about this: if you want to know if a job got pulled, call and ASK. I think this is generational... A whole cohort of (now doctoral) students under the mistaken assumption that they are customers, and we're all just here to serve them.
Departments and department representatives believing they are creme de la creme like the angry genious above are just as annoying as whining candidates. Apparent sense of entitlement on both sides. I guess we all deserve each other then.
More to the point, a PA position recieves about 100 applications tops, all entered into a spreadsheet upon receipt. Whatever one's justification for non-professional behavior, my take is that it takes about 10 minutes for an administrative assistant to draft a 'status of search' email and bulk e-email it to all applicants. Some departments, like mine, even go through the hardly royal pain to hit the "mail merge" button and print the letters. Shocking, I know.
my department gets far more than 100 applications for a position. we also have only 3 full time staff persons to service all department needs (payroll, grants management, student services, student applications (for all programs), faculty services, university interactions...). One staff member assists the hiring committee, and is swamped just getting all the materials together (matching letters to packets etc) and passing those to the committee.
Candidates should not assume that hiring is the only thing going on in a department. we are all (faculty and staff) stretched quite thin...
So, it is not only the candidates that whine then, eh? The normal service expectation in most research universities is about 20% of the work effort, or 8 hours per week. I have never, ever, in my entire career had a week when I've done anything service-related for more than 8 hours a week...
Yes... and teaching and research are evenly split at 40% each. I'd like to see an R1 department where tenure and promotion relies 20% on service and 40% on teaching. The "work effort" ratio is complete BS.... more like 90% research, 5% teaching, and 5% service.
For those headed to PMRA in Columbus, Ohio, don't forget the faculty/student mixer for doctoral students who are on or close to going on the job market. Friday afternoon at the Hyatt bar.
Syracuse? Here's to multiple flight connections and absolutely nothing to do. Not even the tour of the reservoir that is featured prominently on the city's web site will be available. http://www.syracuse.ny.us/
nothing to do??? really??? 1st off...you're go to a conference not on vacation. Second, there are plenty of restaurants downtown...that is all you would "do" in Syracuse anyway. You may not want to live there... but it is fine, no great, place for PMRC. If you want to see stuff near Syracuse go to the finger lakes...taste some wine...and relax a little.
Nothing to do? Who are these people??! You could attend to share ideas, learn something new, see old friends. PMRC will be held June 2, 2011. Spring conference announced as "experiment", but aim is to eliminate conflicts with APSA, APPAM.
The whole "you gotta network" in order to find a job argument is bogus, IMO. From what I've observed, actually doing good work and keeping your head down has worked much better than schmoozing with people for the sake of it. It is true that all else equal schmoozers will get undue attention, but social pushiness will compensate for the lack of qualifications only up to a point. Observing my tenured colleagues, it is quite clear who schmoozed and who did some actual work. The ones who predominantly schmoozed never produced anything after getting the tenure letter, but keep schmoozing. So what?
I'd say it's a plus to find the people who can network effectively while producing good work. I was glad to see several advanced students at PMRC not yet on the job market who will make excellent candidates when they do go on the job market.
No one wants to work with someone who isn't personable. I wouldn't vote favorably on a tenure bid if the faculty member kept his or her head down but contributed nothing else to the department.
AU was searching for three jobs: econometrics, international, and health (at least that is how I read the three ads). Do you know which one Hafner accepted?
LBJ has been interviewing from early October and will continue interviewing until the first week of November. I do not have any names but I think they are interviewing ~6 candidates during this period.
If it was that bad of a location, then why did you apply? It's one of the best public universities in the U.S., one of the premier public affairs/policy schools in the U.S., and is about an hour from Indianapolis. Yes, sounds horrible to me. I wish I could be more sympathetic in a not so hot market, but we're not in the sympathy business here.
anybody that says IU is in a terrible location has unlikely ever been on its campus or to bloomington. it is one of the most beautiful campuses with plenty of trees and creeks that run through campus with walking bridges. it has a really active student body and solid sports teams. downtown bloomington is small, but the area just off campus has just about every type of ethnic restaurant and plenty of cultural activities both on and off campus areas. if you enjoy the outdoors, there are nice state parks within 30 minutes. yes, nearest airport is in indy, but it's a nice tradeoff in my opinion.
The indiana rumor cannot possibly be true (unless it refers to IUPUFW) - I just double-checked the indiana ad and it says that review of applications will begin on Nov 2nd.
There are at least a half dozen faculty positions open at Indiana so people here should specify which job they're referring to if they're asking for an update(Policy? Public/NPO mgmt? Finance?).
Only two positions have been short-listed at this date (P/NPM, MPA), but ALL are possibly in play if other good applications came in. That is SOP because the date specified on the job ad is the date on which applications will BEGIN to be reviewed not the date on which they STOP being reviewed (this is normal practice -- read those ads carefully!).
Obviously if you wait too long, you're SOL, but it's still possible to get your application reviewed after an indicated date for any job.
And by the way, Bloomington is an amazing place to live.....
Even with all the budget cuts, this is still a surprisingly good job market year. (or perhaps more precisely - sucks no more or less than other shitty years).
I think that is true for public management, comparative PA/international development, and environmental policy. For social, education, or health policy: not many jobs.
Ohio State asked for letters and writing samples and is doing phone interviews for the Public Management position. I am happy that I am one of the people selected for the interview
I don't know what an average number would be. But, I asked during two phone interviews, one school was interviewing 6 by phone before making invites, the other just said "few".
I've always suspected that a cranky OSU person practically lives on this blog.
Anyway, on the question of phone interviews, schools typically would phone interview about twice or thrice the number they intend to invite to campus (depending on the applicant pool, of course.)
In my opinion, even in deep pools, phone interviews are pretty much useless, and even borderline insulting. The only purpose they serve is to further trim the short list by weeding out more candidates - but ineitably on the grounds of shaky, superficial and unreliable evidence.
My school has never done phone interviews. All the information you need to make an informed decision to invite someone to campus is contained in the CV, the writing samples, and the letters.
Now that I've been an SC member a few times, I see why some of these jobs remain open forever. The job talks of late haven't been great. More specifically, they seem unpracticed/unpolished.
Practice practice...that is right on. Deliver your talk at your campus first and them do it in your room the night before...and if you get up early...do it again to yourself.
If I were you, I'd hope to get the Virginia or Indiana jobs...unless you really, REALLY love Cullowhee, NC. Then again you can always live in Asheville...
I know at least one person interviewing at the following schools: Cornell (Policy analysis), American Univ. (seems like a bunch of different jobs), Indiana (SPEA), South Carolina (finance) and UT-Austin (multiple).
That is one lucky person. I am not asking for names but can you tell me if this person is ABD or Ph.D. Many people have not had one interview in this climate so this person is like I said earlier very lucky.
^^ Sorry, my post above was unclear. I know of at least one person who is interviewing at Indiana, another person who is interviewing at Cornell, another person who is interviewing at South Carolina etc. These are primarily assistant professor with lots of publications. But, one is an ABD from Syracuse.
I'll be at APPAM later this week and will try to figure out which other schools have started interviewing. Others, please do the same.
The assistant professor you mention cannot possibly be interviewing for the MPA director position at Indiana. It must be for one of the tenure-track positions.
^ Because when I have a phone interview, I ask about the school's timeline and (sometimes) how many candidates they are interviewing. Sometimes schools will give a specific number, sometimes not.
^Whatever. I think that's way over-analyzing. It is no different than a school asking me if I had any offers on which I had to make a decision yet or if other schools had begun their interviewing (both of which I've been asked in the past month).
^^ And by the way, it *is* different. When, as an SC member, I ask you how many offers you have, it's because I want to know how much time I have if I want to pursue you. When you ask how many other interviewees there are, you're asking a question for which there is no productive answer. If there are 3, there are 3. If there are 5, there are 5. Your life is no better or worse off. You're still one of a handful.
Ah, the requisite cranky SC member's got to chime in before going to bed. Why yes, of course it is important to me to know if I have 20% or 33% chance. Not just for the sake of knowing, but also as an indirect indicator of how likely it is to take you forever to get yourselves organized for on-campus interviews.
But guess what, even I, as a candidate, actually understand why and agree that asking this question is bad form. This is still not a reason to perpetuate the nonchalant and disrespectful attitude towards candidates that everybody already knows that many of the SCs have.
People, if you want SC members to participate in your blog, BEHAVE! I can put up with a limited amount of juvenile venting, spewing and griping because I was once on the job market too and I sympathize with your stress level. But griping at fellow bloggers is just as bad as kicking the dog when you have a bad day.
Comments like 11/9 5:20 are EXACTLY why I don't post information about our interviewing here. Why should I take the risk? You want SC members to be more helpful? Stop whining.
.....and this is where some other job seeker should have chimed in saying "don't let a few trolls spoil the blog!" ...dead silence.... 'kay then. Bye-bye.
As an occasional SC member, I stopped providing information on here precisely because it's not the occasional troll who spoils the blog. The whining is a systemic problem. In the best case, information provided on here is used to blast schools that "take forever" to hire or "never reach out" to candidates. In the worst case, schools' decisions are second-guessed and/or individual candidates are criticized openly. It's ridiculous.
Rutgers-Newark just sent out a job announcement over the PMRA listserv for two assistant positions, one in Public Mangement. Two months ago they had an almost identical position in Public Management except open rank. What does that mean for those of us who applied for the assistant professor position? Should I apply again or was my application not well received last time and I shouldn't bother?
Do you want me to delete everything that isn't job-search related so we have a shorter string of more-relevant comments? Or should I just leave it how it is (other than deleting stupid stuff like those creatures someone posted).
I say just leave it....otherwise we're asking alot of you. I would hope, however, that people would be a little more respectful of what we are all interested in.
In regards to full disclosure, I hear Georgia Southern has narrowed down their list further and will be making calls this week or next.
I know alot of people aren't posting info, but I'm hoping that by posting the info I gather from my own job hunt will help others and encourage their posting info as well.
I've been told that Kansas has offers out for their lower positions and have brought out people from their upper level position.
As to the content of posts: We are all posting as "Anonymous" with the exception of the host moderator, so nothing is gained by snarky comments or vague references, rumors, etc. Unless you can be positively identified by your post content, then please give details about your information.
I have applied to six positions (most due 10/1/09) and had one phone interview. It appears that three of them have overlooked me, from the blurbs posted here. My qualifications aside, how is the market looking for y'all? I have three more applications in the hopper for the December due dates.
Is Georgia Southern doing a second round of phone interviews or just one round? Wiki/posts have said they conducted phone interviews. Any phone calls yet?
NCSU shows up under "campus interviews" on the wiki - does anyone have more information? How many did candidates have been invited to campus and when are the interviews scheduled? Thanks!
Georgia Southern and Ohio State (Public Management) are both doing on campus interviews. I know someone who was selected to interview for both. Anyone heard anything about UC-Denver?
I know someone who interviewed for the Ohio State budgeting position. I don't know how many people were brought in and I don't know if they are still interviewing.
I don't know what to say but I received an email from Albany telling me thank you but I was not chosen to come in for an interview and good luck with my future endeavors. If you did not receive an email then maybe you are one of the lucky few who will be called in.
When a school or department receives an app from someone they really want but he or she has (or expects to have) multiple options, they often move before the deadline. It's the way of the world.
schools also get applications from people who have no place applying for those positions... particularly in a market where supply PhDs seems to be outstripping the supply of jobs. Consequently, they can send out a letter quickly saying they don't want you. this is not some weird conspiracy, just life...and I might add I appreciate it when they act quickly like that so I can move on and not wonder if I have a shot or not.
Everybody knows that the advertised job description often (if not typically) has nothing to do with the type of person eventually hired, so it only makes sense to apply everywhere, including to positions that have only tenuous relationship with one's credentials.
The whole notion of "fit" is hogwash. "Needs" I understand. "Fit" is just a way of saying "we're crazy and need someone who actually makes us feel good about ourselves", haha.
^ Most inaccurate comment I have read in a long time. "Fit" and "need" are both extremely important. When you're hired, your colleagues could be stuck with you for up to six or seven years even if things aren't working out. Why would they hire someone who they doubt will fit with the rest of the department? Just as one example, if the personality of a department is such that faculty accessibility for students is valued then why would they hire a candidate who appears as though teaching is an after-thought. Or, vice versa for departments that value only research.
A reply to 11/21 1:09, who writes "it only makes sense to apply everywhere, including to positions that have only tenuous relationship with one's credentials."
Sigh....
I am a SC member, and I spent the fall slogging through vitas for a management position where it was clear that more than half were not eligible (note to policy scholars: don't apply for mgmt positions unless you can/will teach management and can demonstrate that). You don't gain anything by applying for positions you're not qualified for. I just remember you as someone who can't read a job description. And next time you apply, you get a much more cursory look.
I'm not an SC member, but I prefer no hostility....the discussion might be slightly discouraging, but at least I'm finding out what's going on at places I've applied to.
I have served and/or chaired a number of SC. I am not annoyed by people who apply whose qualifications barely (if at all) fit the descriptions of the position, especially in the case of junior candidates.
What I do find extremely annoying is the increasingly common practice of some job seekers to list under "publications" papers that are actually under review, and to list the journal. Hope springs eternal, but with rejection rates being what they are, I do not understand the point of listing the journal to which the papers have been submitted. It is not a publication. It is simply a paper under review. I much prefer to have such a paper identified as "research in progress" and it is ok to say that a paper is under review. But to go beyond is either stretching the point, or perhaps even mislead someone taking a quick look at a CV that there are actual publications when there are not.
(I'm on a SC as well). As long as the paper is clearly labeled as "under review" (ideally in a sub-section 'papers under review' i see no problem. Many junior candidates wil have maybe 1 published paper, and a bunch of stuff in the pipeline, so that's important information. Now if people are already assistant profs and still do that it would raise problems, but I see no problems with ABDs doing that.
I agree as long as the effort isn't to pass them off as something they are not (or purposefully mislead). Too many ABDs feel like they need to stretch their CV. Good SC members understand that ABDs are just starting out. I think showing that papers are under review or, even better, R&R-ed is really important. But don't call them publications.
Stretching the CV is quite annoying, but probably inevitable at the ABD stage - you gotta make the most of what little you have (plus you've got the whole collective action problem)
It is more annoying to see assistant professors' applications still do that. It is distracting, and the created illusion of productivity is very short-lived.
I just realized that my own CV is actually shorter than it was when I was an ABD. Don't know whether to brag or be embarrassed about that.
Illinois-Chicago is mulling through apps as of mid-last week...as I got an EEO form to fill out from them...at least from an administrative standpoint.
CUNY-John Jay College has just posted openings for three public management positions. I am quite surprised that CUNY is hiring given that the City has cut CUNY's budget by a ton.
Any tips on negotiating a salary during these dire economic times? I am asking because I may receive an offer at a teaching oriented (4-3 load ugh!!!) college and wanted to know what to expect. I figure because this program is housed in a business school that I would be paid more than a traditional PA school. From salary surveys I know what the average AP salary t the school is so I figure they would offer me something around the average salary. Any thoughts?
It's almost always a safe bet that a B-school will pay better. I may be wrong on this as I don't have direct personal experience, but I've been told teaching-oriented schools aren't as willing to negotiate salary. Taking these two factors together in these dire economic times, I wouldn't push too hard on the salary unless you feel you're getting low-balled. Someone else with direct experience may be able to correct anything I've said that is wrong, though.
First, I agree the B-schools will pay more. Do find out what you can about salaries, in general, in the B-school you are applying to. You should argue for as high a salary as you can reasonably justify given the norms of their school or schools like theirs. They may make the case back that you are not in accounting or marketing or the like, but just the argument that you should be making around what others there do, will likely still put you ahead of what a traditional PA program in Arts and Sciences would give.
On negotiating, I have a different perspective than the post above my. Respectfully, I would highly recommend you read the book "Getting to Yes" by Ury, Fisher and Patton. You should ALWAYS try to negotiate for higher salary if you can. Always. But also be able to reasonably justify why you should get that salary.
You can use such justifications as:
1. Your value to them. Why they chose you over others. What YOU bring to the school.
1a. ave. salary in the college you are going to work in.
2. ave. salary in the field
3. Cost of living
4. The fact that compression exists.
Remember that every thousand does matter to some degree because raises come few and far between. Compression is real. Remind them that you only really have a few other times to negotiate in your career: when you get Associate (sorta), when you get Full (sorta) and when someone else offers you a job. Given compression and that your base is the basis of future raises, you should never sell yourself short. Make a reasonably justified counter offer, why you believe you are worth it, and why it is worth it to them. The worst they can say is "no" and why.
Next, on the same draft of paper that you use for this, write down the other interests you have ...things you need to do your job better, things that might make a difference to you also, like:
-travel money/start up package -technology -benefits -spousal opportunities if necessary -if no more room for pay, what about deferred compensation or a donation by the school to your optional retirement fund (403b) -time toward tenure or promotion if you are coming in with past service -a course release for the first year -what you will teach, etc.
By placing your interests on the table...and with justification, you may find that your future employer may satisfy other needs on the list easily if some on the list they cannot do. The point is that they will never know what might satisfy you to come if you don't tell them what your interests are.
Last, remember this. Even if you think you have no power to negotiate, remember this. If they offered the job to you, they want YOU. They went through a lot of work to get you there and a good deal for you and your employer might keep you there for a long time. Be open, honest, complementary, excited, but don't sell yourself short. If you do, you will only regret it later, will end up bitter, and that benefits no one.
When I negotiated my position, they were not super flexible with salary, but I showed numbers from other offers that same year (e.g. what my peers were offered) and did a cost of living adjustment form where I was to where I was going. They came up a bit with the offer.
But, the real deal was in negotiating the extras. Esp. since this is a teaching school, you should get something in writing about your new preps.
My contract reads that I have a 2-2, but can only be assigned one new prep per semester. By year 4 I was super happy to have made this arrangement. Other assistants are prepping way too many classes.
I recognize this is probably an impossibility at a teaching-oriented school, but I negotiated a maximum of 3 preps for the first 6 years. Just another idea of what you might go for.
Ironically, I've had better luck negotiating salary in a tier 2 school than many of my peers trying to negotiate at tier 1. Adjusted for cost of living, I make more than them. Prestige is nice, but you can't eat it.
578 comments:
1 – 200 of 578 Newer› Newest»Carried over from old post...
1. SPEA at IN looking for MPA director and open to outside candidates (not an inside candidate situation).
2. UT-Austin moving forward on campus interviews for at least one of their many lines this year (WTF in this market??)
3. American has listing, concern about poor resources, assurance that resources are v. good for junior folks
4. SC jobs on wiki are posted in their polisci dept.
What else to people know?
Job at UT Arlington just announced on APSA. Also a job at UT Dallas. And Texas Tech (at Associate level). And Baylor. And University of Houston. And the University of Texas at San Antonio is looking for a Dean. What is going on in Texas?
Two new lines open at the new policy school at UVA.
UGA now has a line open...
Texas is kicking y'all's butt, that's what's going on! The south will rise again! Secession now!
I hate when people say that, and I hate the South.
Has LBJ moved forward with the interviews? I heard that their global politics line is delayed. True?
Where is the Ohio State job posting? I can't find it anywhere
I thought the Ohio State listing was pulled - can anyone confirm?
Really? I hadn't heard that. If that is true then this really sucks (I applied and haven't heard anything).
I applied for the Ohio st job and got an EEO mailer from them
Me too. I got the EEO card as well but nothing since.
Ohio State job still appears on APPAM website.
I hate this trend of magically disappearing and reappearing positions. OSU is a good example. For one thing, it can't be that hard to fill them - it's PA/policy, not biochemistry. For another, applicants are left wondering whether they should should apply for the same position a second, third or even fourth time. They've no idea where they stand.
Amen to that.
Exactly how Fing hard is it send a letter that states in some nice way that one of these has occurred:
1) search failed; please apply again.
2) search failed; please do not apply again.
...because it's just that simple, right?
Stop your whining. Hiring in a university is a complex process. A provost might pull a position as an immediate response to political pressures but then relent and give the position back if the department can make a good enough case for it later on when the budget picture has improved. The bureaucracy behind getting positions, pools, and offers approved is often extensive... keeping the pool "intact" until the end of the hiring cycle is the safest strategy for a department to take - even if the position has been pulled at some point in the process.
So let's assume you applied last year and you are considering applying again this year... You are asking for some kind of notification that you should or shouldn't apply? Do you think that the recruitment committee is going to contact all of the candidates that they did not like last year to tell them not to apply this year? Seriously? Why should they? You're all going to apply again anyway, and if you are too lazy to spend the hour it takes to tailor the CV and letter to their department, then they probably don't want you anyway.
The market in PA might be kind of tough right now, but consider the Yale PhD in Comp Lit who winds up teaching high school, or the Harvard PhD in History who makes less than a secretary teaching a 5-5 load at two community colleges. The PA market is GOLDEN compared to most fields. The ridiculous whining on this blog is emblematic of how spoiled we've become.
A fine dissertation, but yes, search committees should notify applicants of the status of a search at the end of the academic year. It's called basic professional decorum - defending academia's poor personnel practices helps us no more than does what you call "whining." And you want to talk about laziness - that our lives don't suck as much as those in other fields is no reason for lazy committees not to send an e-mail.
Then don't apply.
I think it's important to note that many institutions have had lines "frozen," which is much more uncertain than when lines are pulled. Sometimes a line is frozen in October and opened up again in January. Sometimes a provost leaves a department on the hook for a while and won't let them know if they'll be able to search again this year or next.
While I agree that some notification of a search being abandoned would be beneficial, at least in *some* cases, the departments don't even know what's going to happen.
Right. I second the comment on the whining, too... How much time do you think we all have? How about this: if you want to know if a job got pulled, call and ASK. I think this is generational... A whole cohort of (now doctoral) students under the mistaken assumption that they are customers, and we're all just here to serve them.
Any news on the IU MPA Director position?
I received an EEO card from my application to the IU MPA Director job, but that is it so far.
Departments and department representatives believing they are creme de la creme like the angry genious above are just as annoying as whining candidates. Apparent sense of entitlement on both sides. I guess we all deserve each other then.
More to the point, a PA position recieves about 100 applications tops, all entered into a spreadsheet upon receipt. Whatever one's justification for non-professional behavior, my take is that it takes about 10 minutes for an administrative assistant to draft a 'status of search' email and bulk e-email it to all applicants. Some departments, like mine, even go through the hardly royal pain to hit the "mail merge" button and print the letters. Shocking, I know.
The personnel function is just another example of management done poorly by those who teach public management.
With budget cutbacks, many departments are short on staff.
my department gets far more than 100 applications for a position. we also have only 3 full time staff persons to service all department needs (payroll, grants management, student services, student applications (for all programs), faculty services, university interactions...). One staff member assists the hiring committee, and is swamped just getting all the materials together (matching letters to packets etc) and passing those to the committee.
Candidates should not assume that hiring is the only thing going on in a department. we are all (faculty and staff) stretched quite thin...
So, it is not only the candidates that whine then, eh? The normal service expectation in most research universities is about 20% of the work effort, or 8 hours per week. I have never, ever, in my entire career had a week when I've done anything service-related for more than 8 hours a week...
Yes... and teaching and research are evenly split at 40% each. I'd like to see an R1 department where tenure and promotion relies 20% on service and 40% on teaching. The "work effort" ratio is complete BS.... more like 90% research, 5% teaching, and 5% service.
The important point is that we don't work hard enough to claim that it's simply too traumatic to send candidates notification when a search has ended.
Yeah, I don't think that's the important point.
Those who whine the most produce the most (crap).
UT Austin has a shortlist for the IR line, but they have not scheduled interviews.
For those headed to PMRA in Columbus, Ohio, don't forget the faculty/student mixer for doctoral students who are on or close to going on the job market. Friday afternoon at the Hyatt bar.
People at PMRA conference - let us know where it will be held in 2011.
2011 PMRA @ Syracuse
any rumors floating around on the Minnesota job?
Syracuse? Here's to multiple flight connections and absolutely nothing to do. Not even the tour of the reservoir that is featured prominently on the city's web site will be available. http://www.syracuse.ny.us/
nothing to do??? really??? 1st off...you're go to a conference not on vacation. Second, there are plenty of restaurants downtown...that is all you would "do" in Syracuse anyway. You may not want to live there... but it is fine, no great, place for PMRC. If you want to see stuff near Syracuse go to the finger lakes...taste some wine...and relax a little.
Nothing to do? Who are these people??! You could attend to share ideas, learn something new, see old friends. PMRC will be held June 2, 2011. Spring conference announced as "experiment", but aim is to eliminate conflicts with APSA, APPAM.
The poster was obviously being facetious. You have to admit it's funny that a reservoir tour was a highlight on the website, though.
The whole "you gotta network" in order to find a job argument is bogus, IMO. From what I've observed, actually doing good work and keeping your head down has worked much better than schmoozing with people for the sake of it. It is true that all else equal schmoozers will get undue attention, but social pushiness will compensate for the lack of qualifications only up to a point. Observing my tenured colleagues, it is quite clear who schmoozed and who did some actual work. The ones who predominantly schmoozed never produced anything after getting the tenure letter, but keep schmoozing. So what?
I'd say it's a plus to find the people who can network effectively while producing good work. I was glad to see several advanced students at PMRC not yet on the job market who will make excellent candidates when they do go on the job market.
No one wants to work with someone who isn't personable. I wouldn't vote favorably on a tenure bid if the faculty member kept his or her head down but contributed nothing else to the department.
Are schools doing interviews ar PRMC? Which ones?
PMRC is over
Ah, the false dichotomy rears its ugly head. When did networking -- a perfectly appropriate and important social skill -- become "social pushiness"?
I have heard that Old Dominion is doing telephone interviews
Old Dominion called me and asked for additional materials, but did not mention anything about a phone interview.
TAMIU senior position as associate dean/director of the Bi-National Center (you need chair or higher experience) listed at the political science wiki.
Any idea when ODU will move and call for flyouts?
South Carolina is interviewing for finance in coming weeks.
Do you know who is being interviewed for USC finance position?
American has started interviewing.
For which job? Don't they have multiple searches?
Tamara Hafner, Syracuse ABD, accepted one of the American positions.
AU was searching for three jobs: econometrics, international, and health (at least that is how I read the three ads). Do you know which one Hafner accepted?
BTW: Congrats to her!
LBJ has been interviewing from early October and will continue interviewing until the first week of November. I do not have any names but I think they are interviewing ~6 candidates during this period.
Old Dominion should be finishing up the telephone interviews this week. Fly-outs TBD
Very helpful info on timing. Thanks to posters!
Indiana has started interviewing, but what's the word on the front runners???
Any news on the Minnesota, Oregon, or Northern Illinois jobs?
Hm, I haven't heard anything from IN, so I guess I'm out then...
Oh well, lousy location anyway.
If it was that bad of a location, then why did you apply? It's one of the best public universities in the U.S., one of the premier public affairs/policy schools in the U.S., and is about an hour from Indianapolis. Yes, sounds horrible to me. I wish I could be more sympathetic in a not so hot market, but we're not in the sympathy business here.
anybody that says IU is in a terrible location has unlikely ever been on its campus or to bloomington. it is one of the most beautiful campuses with plenty of trees and creeks that run through campus with walking bridges. it has a really active student body and solid sports teams. downtown bloomington is small, but the area just off campus has just about every type of ethnic restaurant and plenty of cultural activities both on and off campus areas. if you enjoy the outdoors, there are nice state parks within 30 minutes. yes, nearest airport is in indy, but it's a nice tradeoff in my opinion.
The indiana rumor cannot possibly be true (unless it refers to IUPUFW) - I just double-checked the indiana ad and it says that review of applications will begin on Nov 2nd.
IU Bloomington has definitely started interviews. So I guess it is possible.
The close date on some IU jobs was October 15... Check the ads.
Does anyone know anything about some of the smaller schools?
How about Iowa State?
BTW, Northern Illinois will begin review on Oct 28 according to acknowledging letter I've received.
There are at least a half dozen faculty positions open at Indiana so people here should specify which job they're referring to if they're asking for an update(Policy? Public/NPO mgmt? Finance?).
Only two positions have been short-listed at this date (P/NPM, MPA), but ALL are possibly in play if other good applications came in. That is SOP because the date specified on the job ad is the date on which applications will BEGIN to be reviewed not the date on which they STOP being reviewed (this is normal practice -- read those ads carefully!).
Obviously if you wait too long, you're SOL, but it's still possible to get your application reviewed after an indicated date for any job.
And by the way, Bloomington is an amazing place to live.....
Just got an email from Iowa State saying due to budget cuts the position is no longer available.
Too bad about Iowa State
Even with all the budget cuts, this is still a surprisingly good job market year.
(or perhaps more precisely - sucks no more or less than other shitty years).
I think that is true for public management, comparative PA/international development, and environmental policy. For social, education, or health policy: not many jobs.
Thank you for that commercial break. And now back to our regularly scheduled programming....
Hey, what's going with the Ohio State search??? They didn't hire anybody last year, what's going this year?!??
Ohio State asked for letters and writing samples and is doing phone interviews for the Public Management position. I am happy that I am one of the people selected for the interview
Boom-chaka-laka-laka-boom! Wazzup, homeyz?
Oh snap. I'm not getting hired at Ohio State, again!
OSU has interviewed for the budget/finance position.
Ok...some names would be nice though.
I'm also interviewing at OSU...but until I get the job (IF I get the job, I'm not giving my name).
some schools are conducting 15-20 minute phone interviews. on average,
how many people do they phone interview before they narrow down to flyouts?
You're not getting the job trust me.
^ Why post such junk?
I don't know what an average number would be. But, I asked during two phone interviews, one school was interviewing 6 by phone before making invites, the other just said "few".
I've always suspected that a cranky OSU person practically lives on this blog.
Anyway, on the question of phone interviews, schools typically would phone interview about twice or thrice the number they intend to invite to campus (depending on the applicant pool, of course.)
In my opinion, even in deep pools, phone interviews are pretty much useless, and even borderline insulting. The only purpose they serve is to further trim the short list by weeding out more candidates - but ineitably on the grounds of shaky, superficial and unreliable evidence.
My school has never done phone interviews. All the information you need to make an informed decision to invite someone to campus is contained in the CV, the writing samples, and the letters.
Now that I've been an SC member a few times, I see why some of these jobs remain open forever. The job talks of late haven't been great. More specifically, they seem unpracticed/unpolished.
Practice practice...that is right on. Deliver your talk at your campus first and them do it in your room the night before...and if you get up early...do it again to yourself.
Does anyone know anything about the searches at Western Carolina? Virginia? Indiana MPA?
If I were you, I'd hope to get the Virginia or Indiana jobs...unless you really, REALLY love Cullowhee, NC. Then again you can always live in Asheville...
I know of two people interviewing at Indiana (SPEA) - both advanced assistants at other places. Not sure of others.
I know at least one person interviewing at the following schools: Cornell (Policy analysis), American Univ. (seems like a bunch of different jobs), Indiana (SPEA), South Carolina (finance) and UT-Austin (multiple).
Do we know what other schools have moved so far?
That is one lucky person. I am not asking for names but can you tell me if this person is ABD or Ph.D.
Many people have not had one interview in this climate so this person is like I said earlier very lucky.
Western Carolina conducted phone interviews.
^^ Sorry, my post above was unclear. I know of at least one person who is interviewing at Indiana, another person who is interviewing at Cornell, another person who is interviewing at South Carolina etc. These are primarily assistant professor with lots of publications. But, one is an ABD from Syracuse.
I'll be at APPAM later this week and will try to figure out which other schools have started interviewing. Others, please do the same.
Thanks for clarifying. The other school I would add to the list that has interviewed so far is Ohio State.
Are schools interviewing candidates at APPAM?
Mills College and U of Kentucky Martin School seem to do interviews at APPAM.
Yeah..I got a note from Kentucky wondering if I'd be at APPAM for an interview, so yeah they are interviewing there
The assistant professor you mention cannot possibly be interviewing for the MPA director position at Indiana. It must be for one of the tenure-track positions.
It is for the assistant professor job (policy analysis) at Indiana's SPEA
Has anyone been contacted by other schools for APPAM interviews?
So, does anybody know who else was invited for Indiana Policy Analysis position (any ABD?)? (I think I'm out, then)
I know of two people interviewing for that position at SPEA.
Calls made for the Indiana SPEA public/non-profit management position.
Jeff Brudney WILL assume the Bantle Chair @ Maxwell in January 2010. Source: Welcome ad in APPAM program.
Yeah, that was what I said six months ago. Some people have to see it to believe it.
I say we close down this blog. It is not helpful this year, there is no relevant information here. Everyone is just so tight lipped about everything.
A crap ton of interviews were conducted at APPAM.
What schools interviewed at APPAM?
I think the comments about which schools have started their interviews is helpful. That's really all I look for.
Other than Kentucky, I don't know what other schools were interviewing at APPAM.
A friend of mine was invited for an interview at UT-San Antonio.
Many of us didn't doubt Jeff was going to Syracuse. He mentioned it several weeks ago at a professional meeting as well.
SPEA Indiana is interviewing and Mathematica.
NYU Wagner interviewed.
which position from Wagner? program evaluation or public finance? Thanks
any words on GA Southern?
GA Southern has started phone interviews.
How many people are they interviewing by phone? 3? 6? 10? 20?
Why would anyone think ^^ knows how many people are being interviewed? If ^^ *is* someone who would know, he or she's not about to give a number.
^ Because when I have a phone interview, I ask about the school's timeline and (sometimes) how many candidates they are interviewing. Sometimes schools will give a specific number, sometimes not.
I don't recommend asking how many are/will be interviewed. Can be a sign of a lack of confidence.
^Whatever. I think that's way over-analyzing. It is no different than a school asking me if I had any offers on which I had to make a decision yet or if other schools had begun their interviewing (both of which I've been asked in the past month).
^ It's not over-analyzing. It's done.
^^ And by the way, it *is* different. When, as an SC member, I ask you how many offers you have, it's because I want to know how much time I have if I want to pursue you. When you ask how many other interviewees there are, you're asking a question for which there is no productive answer. If there are 3, there are 3. If there are 5, there are 5. Your life is no better or worse off. You're still one of a handful.
Ah, the requisite cranky SC member's got to chime in before going to bed. Why yes, of course it is important to me to know if I have 20% or 33% chance. Not just for the sake of knowing, but also as an indirect indicator of how likely it is to take you forever to get yourselves organized for on-campus interviews.
But guess what, even I, as a candidate, actually understand why and agree that asking this question is bad form. This is still not a reason to perpetuate the nonchalant and disrespectful attitude towards candidates that everybody already knows that many of the SCs have.
does anybody know when NCSU is planning on doing call outs or phone interviews?
People, if you want SC members to participate in your blog, BEHAVE! I can put up with a limited amount of juvenile venting, spewing and griping because I was once on the job market too and I sympathize with your stress level. But griping at fellow bloggers is just as bad as kicking the dog when you have a bad day.
Comments like 11/9 5:20 are EXACTLY why I don't post information about our interviewing here. Why should I take the risk? You want SC members to be more helpful? Stop whining.
.....and this is where some other job seeker should have chimed in saying "don't let a few trolls spoil the blog!" ...dead silence.... 'kay then. Bye-bye.
For those who are political scientists and interested in the Colorado job, this is actually a very helpful thread...
http://www.poliscijobrumors.com/topic.php?id=20276
As an occasional SC member, I stopped providing information on here precisely because it's not the occasional troll who spoils the blog. The whining is a systemic problem. In the best case, information provided on here is used to blast schools that "take forever" to hire or "never reach out" to candidates. In the worst case, schools' decisions are second-guessed and/or individual candidates are criticized openly. It's ridiculous.
It's understandable - "he (or she, or them) ain't all that" is indeed one of the funnest things in the world to say!
Come on everyone.....let's try an keep this page to something useful (i.e. discussing the market)
Rutgers-Newark just sent out a job announcement over the PMRA listserv for two assistant positions, one in Public Mangement. Two months ago they had an almost identical position in Public Management except open rank. What does that mean for those of us who applied for the assistant professor position? Should I apply again or was my application not well received last time and I shouldn't bother?
Has Georgia Southern moved or made plans for flyouts?
I should clarify - moved beyond initial phone interviews since a previous poster said they conducted phone interview.
^ Yes, you should apply again. Searches may go unfilled for lots and lots of reasons. It doesn't really make any sense to read into it.
A question for those who frequent the board...
Do you want me to delete everything that isn't job-search related so we have a shorter string of more-relevant comments? Or should I just leave it how it is (other than deleting stupid stuff like those creatures someone posted).
I say just leave it....otherwise we're asking alot of you. I would hope, however, that people would be a little more respectful of what we are all interested in.
In regards to full disclosure, I hear Georgia Southern has narrowed down their list further and will be making calls this week or next.
^Good, useful information. Thanks. I find this board far more informative and civil than the general poli sci board. Let's keep it that way.
Has anyone noticed the web sites of many hiring departments/schools are out of date, sometimes ridiculously so?
I know alot of people aren't posting info, but I'm hoping that by posting the info I gather from my own job hunt will help others and encourage their posting info as well.
I've been told that Kansas has offers out for their lower positions and have brought out people from their upper level position.
Any news on the Kentucky search?
i've heard that kentucky has made offers, but that there was some suspicion about not actually thinking the person would take it
As to the content of posts: We are all posting as "Anonymous" with the exception of the host moderator, so nothing is gained by snarky comments or vague references, rumors, etc. Unless you can be positively identified by your post content, then please give details about your information.
I have applied to six positions (most due 10/1/09) and had one phone interview. It appears that three of them have overlooked me, from the blurbs posted here. My qualifications aside, how is the market looking for y'all? I have three more applications in the hopper for the December due dates.
Is Georgia Southern doing a second round of phone interviews or just one round? Wiki/posts have said they conducted phone interviews. Any phone calls yet?
Any news from NYU Wagner school?
according to poli sci job rumors, wagner had call outs a while back
NCSU shows up under "campus interviews" on the wiki - does anyone have more information? How many did candidates have been invited to campus and when are the interviews scheduled? Thanks!
3 people being brought up (i know one of them).....interviews are right after thanksgiving.
Wiki says that Georgia Southern has moved to campus interviews. Is that confirmed?
Georgia Southern and Ohio State (Public Management) are both doing on campus interviews. I know someone who was selected to interview for both. Anyone heard anything about UC-Denver?
Wagner hasn't called anyone for any of the 3 positions currently interviewed. APPAM interviews for the eval position, but that's it.
^ I meant currently "posted."
How about the Ohio State public budgeting position? Any news on the status of the process?
Thanks for the info on NCSU. Too bad I was not one of the three.
Any news on the Duke Public Policy job? (not the military history one)
Any news on the position at Michigan Ford School?
Any news on the Indiana MPA director?
I know someone who interviewed for the Ohio State budgeting position. I don't know how many people were brought in and I don't know if they are still interviewing.
Albany has sent rejection emails and they have decided who they will bring in for interviews.
The deadline for Albany hasn't even passed yet... the deadline is December 1st.
I don't know what to say but I received an email from Albany telling me thank you but I was not chosen to come in for an interview and good luck with my future endeavors. If you did not receive an email then maybe you are one of the lucky few who will be called in.
Any news on the UTSA position/s???
When a school or department receives an app from someone they really want but he or she has (or expects to have) multiple options, they often move before the deadline. It's the way of the world.
schools also get applications from people who have no place applying for those positions... particularly in a market where supply PhDs seems to be outstripping the supply of jobs.
Consequently, they can send out a letter quickly saying they don't want you. this is not some weird conspiracy, just life...and I might add I appreciate it when they act quickly like that so I can move on and not wonder if I have a shot or not.
Everybody knows that the advertised job description often (if not typically) has nothing to do with the type of person eventually hired, so it only makes sense to apply everywhere, including to positions that have only tenuous relationship with one's credentials.
The whole notion of "fit" is hogwash. "Needs" I understand. "Fit" is just a way of saying "we're crazy and need someone who actually makes us feel good about ourselves", haha.
^ Most inaccurate comment I have read in a long time. "Fit" and "need" are both extremely important. When you're hired, your colleagues could be stuck with you for up to six or seven years even if things aren't working out. Why would they hire someone who they doubt will fit with the rest of the department? Just as one example, if the personality of a department is such that faculty accessibility for students is valued then why would they hire a candidate who appears as though teaching is an after-thought. Or, vice versa for departments that value only research.
I agree ^^ is the most inaccurate. ^^^ isn't far behind. Clearly made by graduate students who've yet to learn how things work on "the other side."
A reply to 11/21 1:09, who writes "it only makes sense to apply everywhere, including to positions that have only tenuous relationship with one's credentials."
Sigh....
I am a SC member, and I spent the fall slogging through vitas for a management position where it was clear that more than half were not eligible (note to policy scholars: don't apply for mgmt positions unless you can/will teach management and can demonstrate that). You don't gain anything by applying for positions you're not qualified for. I just remember you as someone who can't read a job description. And next time you apply, you get a much more cursory look.
To 11/19 12:57: No decision yet on Indiana MPA Director but should happen soon.
^ Thanks!
What about the Indiana policy analysis position? Has an offer been made on that one yet?
No offers have been made on any Indiana position so far as I know, and all but MPA position are still interviewing.
What about the IU-Fort Wayne positions?
Western Carolina has made a hire.
I want to hear some more more annoyed SC members. It is very entertaining.
I'm not an SC member, but I prefer no hostility....the discussion might be slightly discouraging, but at least I'm finding out what's going on at places I've applied to.
has anyone heard from cornell policy?
I know of someone with an interview at Cornell's PAM department - she was contacted awhile ago, but I don't know when it was/is scheduled for.
I have served and/or chaired a number of SC. I am not annoyed by people who apply whose qualifications barely (if at all) fit the descriptions of the position, especially in the case of junior candidates.
What I do find extremely annoying is the increasingly common practice of some job seekers to list under "publications" papers that are actually under review, and to list the journal. Hope springs eternal, but with rejection rates being what they are, I do not understand the point of listing the journal to which the papers have been submitted. It is not a publication. It is simply a paper under review. I much prefer to have such a paper identified as "research in progress" and it is ok to say that a paper is under review. But to go beyond is either stretching the point, or perhaps even mislead someone taking a quick look at a CV that there are actual publications when there are not.
(I'm on a SC as well). As long as the paper is clearly labeled as "under review" (ideally in a sub-section 'papers under review' i see no problem.
Many junior candidates wil have maybe 1 published paper, and a bunch of stuff in the pipeline, so that's important information. Now if people are already assistant profs and still do that it would raise problems, but I see no problems with ABDs doing that.
I agree as long as the effort isn't to pass them off as something they are not (or purposefully mislead). Too many ABDs feel like they need to stretch their CV. Good SC members understand that ABDs are just starting out. I think showing that papers are under review or, even better, R&R-ed is really important. But don't call them publications.
Hi, does anybody have any info on the UI-Chicago position? The deadline was 2 weeks ago. Sounds like a good place to be...
Stretching the CV is quite annoying, but probably inevitable at the ABD stage - you gotta make the most of what little you have (plus you've got the whole collective action problem)
It is more annoying to see assistant professors' applications still do that. It is distracting, and the created illusion of productivity is very short-lived.
I just realized that my own CV is actually shorter than it was when I was an ABD. Don't know whether to brag or be embarrassed about that.
South Carolina has made offers on all positions. No word yet on whether these offers have been accepted.
lolz
Northern Illinois has scheduled interviews
Illinois-Chicago is mulling through apps as of mid-last week...as I got an EEO form to fill out from them...at least from an administrative standpoint.
CUNY-John Jay College has just posted openings for three public management positions. I am quite surprised that CUNY is hiring given that the City has cut CUNY's budget by a ton.
Any tips on negotiating a salary during these dire economic times? I am asking because I may receive an offer at a teaching oriented (4-3 load ugh!!!) college and wanted to know what to expect. I figure because this program is housed in a business school that I would be paid more than a traditional PA school. From salary surveys I know what the average AP salary t the school is so I figure they would offer me something around the average salary. Any thoughts?
It's almost always a safe bet that a B-school will pay better. I may be wrong on this as I don't have direct personal experience, but I've been told teaching-oriented schools aren't as willing to negotiate salary. Taking these two factors together in these dire economic times, I wouldn't push too hard on the salary unless you feel you're getting low-balled. Someone else with direct experience may be able to correct anything I've said that is wrong, though.
On advice on negotiating salary:
First, I agree the B-schools will pay more. Do find out what you can about salaries, in general, in the B-school you are applying to. You should argue for as high a salary as you can reasonably justify given the norms of their school or schools like theirs. They may make the case back that you are not in accounting or marketing or the like, but just the argument that you should be making around what others there do, will likely still put you ahead of what a traditional PA program in Arts and Sciences would give.
On negotiating, I have a different perspective than the post above my. Respectfully, I would highly recommend you read the book "Getting to Yes" by Ury, Fisher and Patton. You should ALWAYS try to negotiate for higher salary if you can. Always. But also be able to reasonably justify why you should get that salary.
You can use such justifications as:
1. Your value to them. Why they chose you over others. What YOU bring to the school.
1a. ave. salary in the college you are going to work in.
2. ave. salary in the field
3. Cost of living
4. The fact that compression exists.
Remember that every thousand does matter to some degree because raises come few and far between. Compression is real. Remind them that you only really have a few other times to negotiate in your career: when you get Associate (sorta), when you get Full (sorta) and when someone else offers you a job. Given compression and that your base is the basis of future raises, you should never sell yourself short. Make a reasonably justified counter offer, why you believe you are worth it, and why it is worth it to them. The worst they can say is "no" and why.
Next, on the same draft of paper that you use for this, write down the other interests you have ...things you need to do your job better, things that might make a difference to you also, like:
-travel money/start up package
-technology
-benefits
-spousal opportunities if necessary
-if no more room for pay, what about deferred compensation or a donation by the school to your optional retirement fund (403b)
-time toward tenure or promotion if you are coming in with past service
-a course release for the first year
-what you will teach, etc.
By placing your interests on the table...and with justification, you may find that your future employer may satisfy other needs on the list easily if some on the list they cannot do. The point is that they will never know what might satisfy you to come if you don't tell them what your interests are.
Last, remember this. Even if you think you have no power to negotiate, remember this. If they offered the job to you, they want YOU. They went through a lot of work to get you there and a good deal for you and your employer might keep you there for a long time. Be open, honest, complementary, excited, but don't sell yourself short. If you do, you will only regret it later, will end up bitter, and that benefits no one.
^,^^, and ^^^
Thanks for the advice.
When I negotiated my position, they were not super flexible with salary, but I showed numbers from other offers that same year (e.g. what my peers were offered) and did a cost of living adjustment form where I was to where I was going. They came up a bit with the offer.
But, the real deal was in negotiating the extras. Esp. since this is a teaching school, you should get something in writing about your new preps.
My contract reads that I have a 2-2, but can only be assigned one new prep per semester. By year 4 I was super happy to have made this arrangement. Other assistants are prepping way too many classes.
I recognize this is probably an impossibility at a teaching-oriented school, but I negotiated a maximum of 3 preps for the first 6 years. Just another idea of what you might go for.
Ironically, I've had better luck negotiating salary in a tier 2 school than many of my peers trying to negotiate at tier 1. Adjusted for cost of living, I make more than them. Prestige is nice, but you can't eat it.
I'm at one of those prestigious R1's in an expensive city. I'll pass on the dinner plate and take the prestige.
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