The Public Policy/Administration Jobs Blog provides a forum for job-seekers seeking jobs in public affairs, public policy, and public management programs.
OK, KU is a great program, but it has two total placements, whereas UGA placed at least SIX last year alone. KU will get there, but they definitely have some catching up to do. A little early to start comparing...
KU is nowhere near UGA on any measurable dimension of PhD program quality. They might produce some exceptional students (the two placements referenced earlier among them), but I attribute that to the students, not the program. In a world of public policy and public administration that is increasingly populated by economists and quantitative researchers, KU lags behind.
Since people won't talk about who places are interviewing, maybe they could clue in about where people are interviewing. We know these people are on the market. Any news about other interviews for them?
- Susan Clark Muntean - Claudia Avellaneda - David Pitts - Ellen Rubin - Becky Nesbitt - Mark Hager - Shannon Portillo
Anything on the Tennessee job? The wiki has said "long short list" for awhile now. The deadline was Sept. 15th. Am interested in the position and have other interviews starting. I may not have gotten a look, of course, but curious to know if they have already moved or not.
Here's how some of the good schools will end up with slightly 'worse' candidates than they would normally get:
1) ~10 superstars (ahem) block most or all the interviews at about ~30 universities. 2) this means that ~20 of these top schools will need to move down their lists 3) in the meantime, schools other than the top ones, already interview some of these candidates that will be considered by the top schools once the superstar dust settles 4) since they already interview, these schools will be able to get at least some of the risk-averse candidates from the top schools' second best choices, since it will take them some time to get to the 2nd round of interviews 5) some of the top schools will need to move even further down their lists
If state budgets and the economy don't hang us, then this sounds a lot like the 60s again...almost.
This was a time when one of my professor's was asked by his advisor. So, where do you think you would like to teach? A reply with 3 or 4 schools...the guy gets on the horn and my professor had his job.
To 5:48, No one wants to go back to the days when the market was closed and recruitment meant that you deal with just friends and former students.
Demand far exceeds supply in the PA and Policy market. If you are not getting job calls, do the following:
1. Publish. Hell with the current random editors at PAR, how hard can it be.
2. Finish your dissertation.
3. If 1 and 2 do not work for you, then pick up a specialization in budgeting and finance.
4. If you are unwilling to do 1, 2, or 3, then quit complaining about the ABDs at Georgia or other schools that are taking all the job interviews. There are too many mediocre people in public administration and public policy as it is. Don't contribute to the problem.
Senior, I'm with you on PAR (although the current state of affairs is clearly "beneficial"..., in the long run everybody loses).
However, for things with PAR to improve, senior scholars also need to quit bitching about the editors (although they are of course right to do so), and bite the bullet and spend some time in service to the field, e.g. by stepping in and editing PAR back to its glory.
7:27 P.M., "Demand far exceeds supply in the PA and Policy market"? I have to say you did not consider the unlimted supply of Ph.D.s in either econ/ps who can also do pp/pa work, and even better.
Come on, 8:02, enough of the "disciplines are better" argument. If political scientists and economists are doing it "better," them why aren't they getting the jobs? In my opinion, political scientists and economists who come to public administration are those who can't make it in their home disciplines.
It seems that there are more than 50 positions this year. I wonder how many people are in the job market of pa/pp now. 50? 100? Anyone has the information of supply?
8:14 PM, please refer to the Calendar of Events of the Martin School, List of Job talks. How many political scientists have been invited there?
Benoy Jacob （UIC） Justin Esarey (FSU) Joshua Cowen(Wisconsin-Madison) Daniel Hawes (A&M) Erik Godwin (UNC) Liam O'Neill, (University of North Texas) Claudia Avellaneda (A&M)
Good, so I'm not the only one disappointed with PAR? I know the quality of a specific journal waxes and wanes, but PAR has been declining in quality for years now.
Example - go back a few years ago and note how many Meier "Texas School" pieces were published in PAR in one year. What was it, something like 3-5 articles that basically said the same thing AND used the same data-set. Simply ridiculous.
And I am a quant person who liked some of Meier's previous research. But we can't have one guy take over a journal - unless we're talking about PAR...
Though my single experience is not necessarily to be generalized, I am a PA AP who beat out a fleet of economists and political scientists...easily. And I'm really nothing special.
OK, smart asses, how many of you can do what Meier and O'Toole have done with a better dataset than the Texas educational stuff? Sure it's been milked to death (people in their own departments will tell you this) but they know that it's good data. Several of their proteges have continued to use the data as well (Hicklin, Pitts, Hawes, etc). Can you back up your disdain with anything substantial or are you just jealous? Either give it a rest, or go out and find better data and trump them...
sigh. see, I knew we would get the comment like 9:29 as soon as anyone "dared" to question the Meier/O'Toole work.
For what it's worth, the over-publication of the Meier/O'Toole dataset has limited the applicability of their management model (in my opinion). That is, instead of actually looking at theoretical conclusions from their model, people know just roll their eyes at yet another "Texas school system" article (I've literally heard this from numerous top PA scholars and PA programs out there. People are really, really sick of this data-set).
Obviously, Meier and O'Toole are giants, and I won't approach a 1/10 of what they accomplished. But let's get real, having these articles take over certain journals is not a positive development.
And know to quell any hurt feelings, I'll start my worship of "Bureaucracy in a Democratic State."
Regarding Busbee: WHO? We know that there have been stirrings and talks, but we've yet to see one name emerge. Word was previously that we'd know info in Dec...
UGA couldn't get their endowed chair filled last year, so I bet they'll be more cautious (maybe more aggressive??) this year... hence the silence on Busbee
So 9:45, maybe Meier and O'Toole are just doing this to piss you off.
If you have ever seen their act live, you know they are not interested in taking any prisoners.
But seriously, I think we want them to stay with the Texas schools data set. If they move to another data set, then they will take over even more space in the journals because that would let them replicate everything they have done all over again.
Me, I am reading over their stuff to figure out how they do it.
Damn...this is going to be interesting in the spring. If all of the schools on the Wiki indeed hire, then we should see some interesting names and opportunities.
One additional thing. Has anyone noticed the large number of Dean/Chair type positions out there? This should mean some movement on senior positions. Here are some that I remember seeing:
UCLA (yesterday on Chronicle) Texas-Arlington Indiana-SPEA Bloomington Kentucky Virginia Tech
Nothing wrong in asking for names here. While I understand reservations about names for these admin positions (i.e., sometimes those advanced assts or assoc don't want their dept to find out s/he is looking), I don't know why others are reluctant to post names (i.e., newly minted PhDs and ABDs). This blog is much more tight-lipped than the American Jobs blog and I don't understand why.
Why no names? It might be because there are so few people out and so many jobs. For instance, one person asked about names for a job that I happen to be on the list for. I don't know the other candidates, but am unwilling to release my own name:
a) out of fear that my current employer will hear before it is "real" and I choose to tell them.
b) out of a fear that the employer who invited for me for an interview will think I am working the blogs...and them.
c) other worries.
We might all be feeling the same way, hence, non-willing to fess up names.
After you have an offer. It has never served anyone to simply share that he or she is "looking around." Without an offer, you have nothing by which your employer would be compelled to tender a counteroffer. Also, if you fail to get an offer, then your credibility is bruised.
This is all very sad. As somebody here said - everybody is on the market all the time. Nothing personal. The idea that looking around while on a job is in some way a "problem" is absurd. It's a job, not a marriage.
I think the appropriate time is when you go on an interview. The chair should be notified at that point. Waiting till there is an offer seems "late" to me. Plus, if you seek a counter offer it can't hurt for the chair to know there is the possiblity of an outside offer coming to you rather than surprise the chair with the announcemtn of an offer.
1:04 PM, Do not forget that PA has traditionally disliked free market. If market can do everything well, why do people need government or even public administration? The field of PA is fundamentally built on the so called market failure...That's why market mechanism can work in the job market of economists, or even political scientists...
This is all very sad. As somebody here said - everybody is on the market all the time. Nothing personal. The idea that looking around while on a job is in some way a "problem" is absurd. It's a job, not a marriage.
14/12/07 1:04 PM
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Sounds like a graduate student who has not yet experienced the relationships, both professional and personal, that develop among colleagues. Particularly for smallish to medium size departments, a departure can create quite a bit of inconvenience and upheaval (in graduate programs especially).
well, i am a graduate student, and find the idea that i should demonstrate loyalties that go far beyond doing my job well not only naive, but actually quite frightening.
6:48, It's more complicated than that. I know a number of people for whom "doing their job" also includes training doctoral students, some of whom just aren't mobile. When a faculty member decides to move, they often leave students and co-authors behind. It's not just the emotional / institutional ties but professional ones too. It makes it a really hard decision sometimes, particularly when trying to decide when to go, when to tell people, etc.
I have been on the recieving end of faculty on whom I depend moving elsewhere, thrice, and sure, it is extremely unpleasant, even if you are lucky to hav a backup. In one of the cases, the person was upfront and let people know waaaay in advance so we could look for plans B, C etc. In another case, the person did not make a sound before they had the offer in hand and left me and others hanging. Nothing tragic happened, but caused a lot of unnecesary stress.
These and other experiences make me believe that secrecy may be the weapon of choice of the mediocre (people, departments?). Information asymetry will benefit cheifly entities who don't have that much to disclose anyway (and thus get by by riding on other idyosyncratic circumstances.)
Just in from a student of ours who interviewed at Kentucky - After Kentucky interviewed candidates the provost pulled the funding for the budget and finance position. Jennings is scrambling to find "an alternative". A warning for all candidates looking at Kentucky - administrative mismanagement may make this an undesireable place to work.
I'm bored. Folks, the absence of good information is not compensated by the presense of bland attempts at drama. Let's try not to post unless there is some meaningful information. We can do it!
Whitford is undoubtedly a tremendous asset to any institution, but it's hard to imagine that the loss of any one faculty member would be a blow to a program where the faculty page reads as a Who's Who in PA list.
I agree with 6:22. Whitford is not the person who is producing the dissertation award winners. And I have not seen his name in a lot of major journals recently. No disrespect to Whitford but Georgia's reputation is build on Rainey, O'Toole, and Bozeman with a large contingent of others ready to move into those roles.
6:22 -- What's your inside knowledge of Georgia's program? I think he definitely has the potential to produce the dissertation winners, even in a PA department...
I agree with 9:54 PM. His body of work, while disbursed across PA, PP, and PS, is very strong. He doesn't have the name like O'Toole or Bozeman or Rainey... he's still young (not saying the other guys are old) and still is a long way from peaking.
It would be a substantial loss to Georgia, no doubt
8:38 Andy, sorry to burst your bubble, but 2 articles in JoP and one coauthored piece on dutch politics in AJPS 1999 does not constitute all over major political science journals.
I think most of the top schools move at the front of the market, and the others move a little bit later, but there seem to be some exceptions to that...
Not true. Kentucky made some nice offers, and I've talked to a number of interviewees who spoke very highly of the department. Other institutions were just more competitive in different ways.
I'd be suspicious of Kentucky. When word gets out that funding may have been pulled for a position, it has to make you wonder what the resource environment looks like. If a whole position gets pulled, what does that say for salary increases, travel funding, and other necessities?
Aside from the resources problem, Kentucky suffers from a problem of identity. It's more of a place for quasi-economists who address public problems than it is a place for public management people.
In addition, USC has a serious cost of living problem. You mgiht do reasonably as well in salary at another R1 school and be able to buy a 1500 square foot house for $200K instead of $800K.
OSU's Glenn is a great place for public management people, and it has no cost of living problem. Yet it has two offers declined and the third one is also at risk since that candidate also got an offer from the No.1 Maxwell...
OSU is relatively small program in a big big school. It was an institute of sorts with a faculty. That is changing quickly and is likely to change in the next few years with Charlie Wise as its new director. Again, the faculty is quite quite small and some may just see places like Syracuse as more established (clearly). I think OSU would be a great great job because of cost of living, the potential for great resources, and because of the change in leadership.
re: 3/11 11;22am I was surpised with two declined USC offers too. But one of them went to American (Washington DC) and it made a sense to me. I would love to be in LA but some friends of mine will go extra miles to stay in east coast and it is DC. (of course, there will be other factors but...)
Why those schools on the front wave (or any other schools) in PA/PP close the search, rather than doing short term contract (1-2 yrs)? Just curious. My friend in another discpline (Social science) told me there seemed to be a more opportunities such as visiting assitant professor or something like that for a year or two for ABDs in his discpline.
There's no point in offering a short-term contract (i.e., shorter than what everyone else in the department was given) because no candidate would take one. Candidates aren't idiots, and offering a shorter-than-usual-term contract would not be appealing at all. It's sort of like marrying your 4th choice and putting an escape clause into the prenup.
Re: 3:36 PM Short-term contracts (visiting APs, post-docs) are pretty common in all natural sciences and some social sciences (econ, business). I do not understand why it could not apply to pa/pp. Fresh Ph.D.s aren't idiots, but when they are unable to give a strong signal to buyers (e.g., publications), they have to consider some sub-prime offers. Visiting AP should be a better title than ABD.
Short term contracts should be the norm. If you do well, you get renewed. If you don't, you get fired (even after you are tenured). Free market and labor mobility rule.
Ok 11:25, let's say you're a public policy person in a political science department, and your chair has just changed to a political theorist who despises applied work. Despite an exceptional publication record, you get the boot. Or, let's say you're a very good public finance person in a PA department, but you're a quantitative methodologist and your new chair is a qualitative person. He thinks your work is mind numbing number crunching, so you get the boot again.
The bottom line is that there are countless scenarios where "doing well" can't be measured objectively. Protections against intellectual disagreements are important in academia. I'm not saying tenure necessarily "works," but this "free market" nonsense is sophomoric and ill informed.
AEA's "Job Market Scramble" web site, which usually starts in March each year. http://www.aeaweb.org/joe/scramble/
Description:
Occasionally prospective employers of new Ph.D. economists exhaust their candidates before hiring someone during the winter/spring "job market" period. Similarly, new economics Ph.D.s seeking a job sometimes find that all of the prospective employers with whom they have interviewed have hired someone else before they have secured an appointment.
To address these problems, the AEA has established a "Job Market Scramble" web site to facilitate communication between employers and job seekers in late spring. In March, employers that continue to have an open position previously advertised in Job Openings for Economists (JOE) may post a short notice of its availability (with a link to the JOE listing). Similarly, new or recent economics Ph.D. job seekers still looking for a position may post a short announcement of their continued availability, with a link to their application materials (C.V., papers, references). The web site will open for viewing to those who have listed a position or availability soon after listings close. There is no charge for the "Job Market Scramble."
You wouldn't want to work under a primate who gives you a hard time simply because he disagrees with you anyway. So if the hypothetical person in question is any good and ends up fired in spite of a "brilliant" publication record, he or she'll be able to find a good job someplace else, and quickly. Or, maybe I am simply upset by a couple of tenured folks in my department who have not published anything, zilch, nicht, nada, in the 5 or so years I've been around.
2:46 PM, Maybe you know what happened to Rochester's public policy program around ten years ago. However, if one is strong enough, he/she should be able to find a decent place somewhere else and pursue more successful careers, either within or outside academia. The free market still works.
If the free market "works so well", why would schools ever offer tenure?
Of course, the answer is that tenure is part of a wage package, just like salary or moving costs. Qualified candidates can demand and receive it. Long-term contracts are a result of the free market.
Long-term contracts could be an outcome of free market. But the lack of short-term contracts is not an outcome of free market. In other words, the lack of short-term contracts could be harmful to both recruiters and job seekers in this market. How many schools/ABDs will end up with nothing this year?
It would be great if one or all of APPAM/ASPA/NASPAA/PMRA/ARNOVA/ABFM could join with annual meetings of ASSAs. There are too many major conferences in PA/PP., which is really inefficient.
Most long-term contract holders don't want their schools to increase the number of short-term contracts. Having more short-term contracts also damages long-run reputation (the oddities being "professors of practice" positions, which are never held by recent ABDs).
RE: 5/1/08 4:04 PM "Having more short-term contracts also damages long-run reputation". Why does the field of pa/pp hold such a bias? There are tons of short-term contracts in medicine, sciences, business, etc. Are those schools less respected compared with pa/pp schools? The answer might be "No".
There may be one too many conferences in PA/PP, but we definitely don't want to consolidate too much. More conferences = more exposure for more of us. As an example of the alternative, the Gods (and their grad students) of PMRA already complain that too many of us mere mortals are able to attend its bi-annual conference. Imagine how little voice we'd have if they controlled a larger share.
Departments that decide not to fill positions now but to wait for the next year (hoping to "get lucky", perhaps?) strike me as irrational. How are things going to be different next year? The pool will be exactly the same, give or take some noise.
(Of course, not being able to get their own priorities straight - that's another story.)
Many schools use a high-risk hiring strategy this year. Georgetown's public management offer goes to a candidate who also holds offers from Princeton and Yale and UPenn. Several decent/major PA schools have most or all offers declined.
If previous years had similar experiences, I have to say the pa/pp job market seems to be very inefficient...
The Georgetown offer does seem to be high risk, but it also just seems strange. Sure, Lerman is an exceptional political scientist, but is she public management?
5:00 - some schools decide to postpone their hire to the following year thinking that they'll get their act together more quickly and move at the front of the market. I think we see general evidence of this, with interviews and offers creeping more and more into October/November. I am not sure if they think there will be a lot more candidates, but I think they probably hope to be more strategic/fast about their hire.
In fact some schools are quite flexible in hiring since they are not in desparate need of new faculty. The demand for MPA/MPP education is not as strong as that in business schools. If they cannot get the best candidates they want, it won't hurt a lot to wait for another year.
7:29 -- there are people trying to establish an entire Public Service Academy (which I do recognize is for undergraduates). While you assert that business schools are upping MPA/MPP programs, that doesn't necessarily diminish the importance of education geared toward work in the public or non-profit sectors, nor the importance of hiring the best possible candidates for those programs. The demand is clearly there.
7:41 PM, The demand for excellent public service people is clear and clearly small. This country needs only ONE President and 50 Governors. That's why people have been fighting so hard in IOWA recently. B-schools are upping public affairs schools not only in numbers of students but also in salaries of graduates and faculty.
I also doubt the importance of hiring the best possible faculty candidates for those MPA/MPP programs. If they are important, why do some provosts pull the funding for new positions? It's not unheard that some pp/pa programs were even cut for different reasons in recent years. This fact may also explain why the use of short-term contracts is less popular in pa/pp schools. The demand for short-term researchers (post-docs) or short-term teachers (Visiting APs) is relatively weak there.
8:07, you are horrendously ignorant. There are more than 87,000 local governments. This figure does not even include all special purpose governments. Then there are the hundreds of thousands of non-profits.
What's more, B schools have tons of internal funding and aren't at the mercy of provosts. The fact that PP/PA departments aren't internally funded by corporate tools with money to burn after racking up illustrious careers in such exciting and important fields as sales or supply-chain management is no mark against public service.
The idea that there is a market for everything and that less money = less significance is patently false and ignorant. This country needs public service, and the *service* component is precisely why public managers and those who train them sacrifice a bit of material wealth.
8:19 PM, you are talking about the "demand for public service", which is not the same as "the demand for excellent public service people". If you really want to make a comparison, you need to do research on the numbers in business sector. I might be "horrendously ignorant", but those who choose to pursue a 6-digit salary package with a top MBA diploma in hand are not.
1,292 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 1292 Newer› Newest»OK, KU is a great program, but it has two total placements, whereas UGA placed at least SIX last year alone. KU will get there, but they definitely have some catching up to do. A little early to start comparing...
KU is nowhere near UGA on any measurable dimension of PhD program quality. They might produce some exceptional students (the two placements referenced earlier among them), but I attribute that to the students, not the program. In a world of public policy and public administration that is increasingly populated by economists and quantitative researchers, KU lags behind.
Actually it looks like UGA has place even more than 6 in the last year. Looks more like 9 in the last year.
They placed what appears to be 18 since 2004 see (http://uga.edu/padp/phdjobmarket.html)
Don't know too many more programs turning out those types of numbers... particularly at the schools these folks were placed at.
Since people won't talk about who places are interviewing, maybe they could clue in about where people are interviewing. We know these people are on the market. Any news about other interviews for them?
- Susan Clark Muntean
- Claudia Avellaneda
- David Pitts
- Ellen Rubin
- Becky Nesbitt
- Mark Hager
- Shannon Portillo
Anybody to add to the list?
Rubin's interviewing at Albany
Pitts interviewed at Georgetown.
I believe Portillo accepted the Mason offer.
Rubin may have interviews with OSU and UConn as well...
I understand that Hawes (A&M) has interviewed at Iowa State, Kent State and Kentucky and is holding offers from two of them.
Pitts at OSU too
Anything on the Tennessee job? The wiki has said "long short list" for awhile now. The deadline was Sept. 15th. Am interested in the position and have other interviews starting. I may not have gotten a look, of course, but curious to know if they have already moved or not.
Thanks.
I heard Tennessee had some problems and things are going to be delayed until the spring.
Thank you so much.
Any news on Cal Poly?
Anyone know what's going on with the Albany public policy position?
Any news on MSU and NIU?
Good luck to anybody who is visiting this site once a day..
how many positions have you applied by now?
Here's how some of the good schools will end up with slightly 'worse' candidates than they would normally get:
1) ~10 superstars (ahem) block most or all the interviews at about ~30 universities.
2) this means that ~20 of these top schools will need to move down their lists
3) in the meantime, schools other than the top ones, already interview some of these candidates that will be considered by the top schools once the superstar dust settles
4) since they already interview, these schools will be able to get at least some of the risk-averse candidates from the top schools' second best choices, since it will take them some time to get to the 2nd round of interviews
5) some of the top schools will need to move even further down their lists
How about that, eh?
how about it?
If state budgets and the economy don't hang us, then this sounds a lot like the 60s again...almost.
This was a time when one of my professor's was asked by his advisor. So, where do you think you would like to teach? A reply with 3 or 4 schools...the guy gets on the horn and my professor had his job.
To 5:48, No one wants to go back to the days when the market was closed and recruitment meant that you deal with just friends and former students.
Demand far exceeds supply in the PA and Policy market. If you are not getting job calls, do the following:
1. Publish. Hell with the current random editors at PAR, how hard can it be.
2. Finish your dissertation.
3. If 1 and 2 do not work for you, then pick up a specialization in budgeting and finance.
4. If you are unwilling to do 1, 2, or 3, then quit complaining about the ABDs at Georgia or other schools that are taking all the job interviews. There are too many mediocre people in public administration and public policy as it is. Don't contribute to the problem.
A Senior Scholar
Senior, I'm with you on PAR (although the current state of affairs is clearly "beneficial"..., in the long run everybody loses).
However, for things with PAR to improve, senior scholars also need to quit bitching about the editors (although they are of course right to do so), and bite the bullet and spend some time in service to the field, e.g. by stepping in and editing PAR back to its glory.
7:27 P.M., "Demand far exceeds supply in the PA and Policy market"? I have to say you did not consider the unlimted supply of Ph.D.s in either econ/ps who can also do pp/pa work, and even better.
Come on, 8:02, enough of the "disciplines are better" argument. If political scientists and economists are doing it "better," them why aren't they getting the jobs? In my opinion, political scientists and economists who come to public administration are those who can't make it in their home disciplines.
I'm really enjoying this blog today. :)
And the USC offer goes to？
It seems that there are more than 50 positions this year. I wonder how many people are in the job market of pa/pp now. 50? 100? Anyone has the information of supply?
8:14 PM, please refer to the Calendar of Events of the Martin School, List of Job talks. How many political scientists have been invited there?
Benoy Jacob （UIC）
Justin Esarey (FSU)
Joshua Cowen(Wisconsin-Madison)
Daniel Hawes (A&M)
Erik Godwin (UNC)
Liam O'Neill, (University of North Texas)
Claudia Avellaneda (A&M)
Good, so I'm not the only one disappointed with PAR? I know the quality of a specific journal waxes and wanes, but PAR has been declining in quality for years now.
Example - go back a few years ago and note how many Meier "Texas School" pieces were published in PAR in one year. What was it, something like 3-5 articles that basically said the same thing AND used the same data-set. Simply ridiculous.
And I am a quant person who liked some of Meier's previous research. But we can't have one guy take over a journal - unless we're talking about PAR...
Let's be fair the Meier, he and O'Toole took over a number of journals with their Texas school data, not just PAR
Re: Disciplines are Better
Though my single experience is not necessarily to be generalized, I am a PA AP who beat out a fleet of economists and political scientists...easily. And I'm really nothing special.
Pride cometh before the fall.
I'm pretty sure that SUNY - Brockport and James Madison currently have, or already did have the campuse visits.
OK, smart asses, how many of you can do what Meier and O'Toole have done with a better dataset than the Texas educational stuff? Sure it's been milked to death (people in their own departments will tell you this) but they know that it's good data. Several of their proteges have continued to use the data as well (Hicklin, Pitts, Hawes, etc). Can you back up your disdain with anything substantial or are you just jealous? Either give it a rest, or go out and find better data and trump them...
sigh. see, I knew we would get the comment like 9:29 as soon as anyone "dared" to question the Meier/O'Toole work.
For what it's worth, the over-publication of the Meier/O'Toole dataset has limited the applicability of their management model (in my opinion). That is, instead of actually looking at theoretical conclusions from their model, people know just roll their eyes at yet another "Texas school system" article (I've literally heard this from numerous top PA scholars and PA programs out there. People are really, really sick of this data-set).
Obviously, Meier and O'Toole are giants, and I won't approach a 1/10 of what they accomplished. But let's get real, having these articles take over certain journals is not a positive development.
And know to quell any hurt feelings, I'll start my worship of "Bureaucracy in a Democratic State."
In other news, rumor has it that UGA is bringing in Busbee candidates soon.
Regarding Busbee: WHO? We know that there have been stirrings and talks, but we've yet to see one name emerge. Word was previously that we'd know info in Dec...
I guess you know it's the end of the semester when people start getting impatient with this blog.
6/12/07 9:29 AM - Do Meier and O'Toole's current proteges-in-training know what they're getting into? :)
UGA has been and continues to be very tight lipped about Busbee. No word on candidates that I know of.
any word on the UMBC position?
UMBC did phone interviews some time ago
Re disciplines are better
Comparative rumor mill says Fotini Christia Harvard public policy was offered an International Relations position by MIT.
So much for the idea that poli sci is more rigorous than public policy. . . .
These disciplines have fuzzy boundaries and we should be a little less hierarchical.
I wonder how the competition between the plethora (compared to the norm, anyway) of endowed chairs will pan out.
UGA couldn't get their endowed chair filled last year, so I bet they'll be more cautious (maybe more aggressive??) this year... hence the silence on Busbee
It was my impression that UGA more or less chose not to fill Busbee last year.
So 9:45, maybe Meier and O'Toole are just doing this to piss you off.
If you have ever seen their act live, you know they are not interested in taking any prisoners.
But seriously, I think we want them to stay with the Texas schools data set. If they move to another data set, then they will take over even more space in the journals because that would let them replicate everything they have done all over again.
Me, I am reading over their stuff to figure out how they do it.
Think English local government data.
Guys, please return to job rumors, you can publish your critiques to some scholars at PAR or some other places.
Yeah, since PA is such an open forum where alternative perspectives are widely accepted. (Yes, I am being bitterly sarcastic.)
Godwin has accepted one of the positions at Kentucky.
Godwin accepted TAMU?
This guy must be something else!
Now I'm confused did Godwin accept Texas A&M or Kentucky?
Departments are responding to the shortage of candidates by sharing hires.
Can you imagine the commute from Lexington to College Station? He'd have to make like 9 connections!
7:51, kudos for one of best jokes ever posted on here. At least we hope things aren't yet that bad.
Who is interviewing at UC-Berkeley this year?
I don't like you, u-uh.
Re: Scheduling
Clinton School (Arkansas) is scheduling Phone interviews
University of Massachussetts (Amherst) broad political science public policy search is scheduling job talks.
Re scheduling
Talked to two senior faculty members at UT-Austin, they are working on long short list but they are moving slowly.
Re Evans Schoool
I never saw a posting for the Evans School.
where was it?
USC offers out.
USC offer did not go to SD.
USC public management offer went to David Pitts (Georgia PhD)
How many offers does David hold right now? 2,3,or 4?
USC made more than one offer.
And an inside source tells me that they would be more than happy to hire all three.
maybe USC is in desperate need of junior pm faculty...This year seems to be an outlier...
How is this year an outlier? It seems to be business as usual to me.
What's up with Ohio state and SUNY? Who flopped and who didn't?
Damn...this is going to be interesting in the spring. If all of the schools on the Wiki indeed hire, then we should see some interesting names and opportunities.
One additional thing. Has anyone noticed the large number of Dean/Chair type positions out there? This should mean some movement on senior positions. Here are some that I remember seeing:
UCLA (yesterday on Chronicle)
Texas-Arlington
Indiana-SPEA Bloomington
Kentucky
Virginia Tech
What others am I missing?
Add the Goldman School at Berkeley to the Dean search list.
JACKSON STATE UNIV. is also looking for a Chair for its PA dept.
Anyone have names on the college of charleston mpa director interviewees? I heard third hand they are doing fly-outs in january.
Are you a search committee chair, one of the interviewees, or still waiting for the call there?
Nothing wrong in asking for names here. While I understand reservations about names for these admin positions (i.e., sometimes those advanced assts or assoc don't want their dept to find out s/he is looking), I don't know why others are reluctant to post names (i.e., newly minted PhDs and ABDs). This blog is much more tight-lipped than the American Jobs blog and I don't understand why.
Maybe we have less time for gossip than the political scientists.
The wiki says Indiana made an offer. Anybody know who got it?
Any updates on Ohio State, SUNY Albany, or UConn?
Maybe we have less time for gossip than the political scientists.
12/12/07 8:17 AM
that's doubtful.
A colleague in my department appears to have gotten the offer from Ohio State.
Geez. People on this blog are tight with names.
A colleague in my department appears to have gotten the offer from Ohio State.
12/12/07 10:43 AM
Idiot.
Why no names? It might be because there are so few people out and so many jobs. For instance, one person asked about names for a job that I happen to be on the list for. I don't know the other candidates, but am unwilling to release my own name:
a) out of fear that my current employer will hear before it is "real" and I choose to tell them.
b) out of a fear that the employer who invited for me for an interview will think I am working the blogs...and them.
c) other worries.
We might all be feeling the same way, hence, non-willing to fess up names.
Best!
Yeah, well, when asking for names, nobody is interested in you personally.
Does anyone have updates on SUNY Albany either on Public Policy or Public Management position?
thanks.
I think SUNY Albany is still interviewing people
I turned down an Albany interview just before Thanksgiving. Don't know where that leaves things there.
"a) out of fear that my current employer will hear before it is "real" and I choose to tell them."
When is the right time to tell your employer that you are testing the market?
After you have an offer. It has never served anyone to simply share that he or she is "looking around." Without an offer, you have nothing by which your employer would be compelled to tender a counteroffer. Also, if you fail to get an offer, then your credibility is bruised.
This is all very sad. As somebody here said - everybody is on the market all the time. Nothing personal. The idea that looking around while on a job is in some way a "problem" is absurd. It's a job, not a marriage.
I think the appropriate time is when you go on an interview. The chair should be notified at that point. Waiting till there is an offer seems "late" to me. Plus, if you seek a counter offer it can't hurt for the chair to know there is the possiblity of an outside offer coming to you rather than surprise the chair with the announcemtn of an offer.
1:04 PM, Do not forget that PA has traditionally disliked free market. If market can do everything well, why do people need government or even public administration? The field of PA is fundamentally built on the so called market failure...That's why market mechanism can work in the job market of economists, or even political scientists...
This is all very sad. As somebody here said - everybody is on the market all the time. Nothing personal. The idea that looking around while on a job is in some way a "problem" is absurd. It's a job, not a marriage.
14/12/07 1:04 PM
****************************
Sounds like a graduate student who has not yet experienced the relationships, both professional and personal, that develop among colleagues. Particularly for smallish to medium size departments, a departure can create quite a bit of inconvenience and upheaval (in graduate programs especially).
5:32 PM is another evidence of the fear of free market mechanism in PA.
I have to say that the lack of faculty mobility does not benefit this field.
well, i am a graduate student, and find the idea that i should demonstrate loyalties that go far beyond doing my job well not only naive, but actually quite frightening.
6:48, It's more complicated than that. I know a number of people for whom "doing their job" also includes training doctoral students, some of whom just aren't mobile. When a faculty member decides to move, they often leave students and co-authors behind. It's not just the emotional / institutional ties but professional ones too. It makes it a really hard decision sometimes, particularly when trying to decide when to go, when to tell people, etc.
Well, 7:37 PM, it happens everywhere, in every disciplines. How could PA/PP be an exception?
Any news from FIU,V-Tech, UI-Chicago?
FIU is bringing candidates for interviews jan7th-jan31st
I have been on the recieving end of faculty on whom I depend moving elsewhere, thrice, and sure, it is extremely unpleasant, even if you are lucky to hav a backup. In one of the cases, the person was upfront and let people know waaaay in advance so we could look for plans B, C etc. In another case, the person did not make a sound before they had the offer in hand and left me and others hanging. Nothing tragic happened, but caused a lot of unnecesary stress.
These and other experiences make me believe that secrecy may be the weapon of choice of the mediocre (people, departments?). Information asymetry will benefit cheifly entities who don't have that much to disclose anyway (and thus get by by riding on other idyosyncratic circumstances.)
UI-Chicago had the campus visits last week.
V-Tech had campus visits two weeks ago
North Carolina Charlotte has TWO offers out for its public policy slot.
Virginia Tech - the junior position?
RE: "USC offer did not go to SD."
10/12/07 6:30 PM
WHO or WHAT is "SD"???
Not sure who SD is, but Pitts and Avellenda got the USC offers. that does not mean other offers might follow.
Any news from Penn State, Harrisburg?
re: Virginia Tech - the junior position?
junior & senior
Just in from a student of ours who interviewed at Kentucky - After Kentucky interviewed candidates the provost pulled the funding for the budget and finance position. Jennings is scrambling to find "an alternative".
A warning for all candidates looking at Kentucky - administrative mismanagement may make this an undesireable place to work.
poor Ed...I know why he chose to resign...
Who are scheduled to interview at FIU?
Don't know what's going on in Kentucky, but the over-generalization smells like a case of "the grapes are sour anyway".
Last year Kentucky failed to fill any pa/pp position (offers were declined). Right?
I'm bored.
Folks, the absence of good information is not compensated by the presense of bland attempts at drama. Let's try not to post unless there is some meaningful information. We can do it!
real info is always good info...
SUNY Albany has made an offer in public policy, but not to me :-(
11:22 AM, who is the lucky one?
Does anyone have information about Tuft's position in their Department of Urban Policy and Planning?
I wanna be a spousal hire.
Pitts was in Ohio for the weekend, which could mean that is where he is headed... don't know for sure.
Avellenda also has an offer from Charlotte
5:11 AM, OSU's offer was declined by Pitts (from wiki).
the intrigue builds
18/12/07 10:47 AM,
the intrigue builds for what?
Who else is on the Ohio list?
Wait, I don't care anymore.
18/12/07 11:36 AM, you have no sense of the IQs of SCs.
FAU is conducting phone interviews.
Any news on South Florida?,North Florida?
Ohio made an offer to another candidate, though I'm not sure who just yet
So, no more action untill January?
Whitford to Indiana?? Wow...that would be a blow to UGA.
Whitford is undoubtedly a tremendous asset to any institution, but it's hard to imagine that the loss of any one faculty member would be a blow to a program where the faculty page reads as a Who's Who in PA list.
I agree with 6:22. Whitford is not the person who is producing the dissertation award winners. And I have not seen his name in a lot of major journals recently. No disrespect to Whitford but Georgia's reputation is build on Rainey, O'Toole, and Bozeman with a large contingent of others ready to move into those roles.
Whitford's name is all over major journals, but they are primarily political science journals.
6:22 -- What's your inside knowledge of Georgia's program? I think he definitely has the potential to produce the dissertation winners, even in a PA department...
I agree with 9:54 PM. His body of work, while disbursed across PA, PP, and PS, is very strong. He doesn't have the name like O'Toole or Bozeman or Rainey... he's still young (not saying the other guys are old) and still is a long way from peaking.
It would be a substantial loss to Georgia, no doubt
This is somewhat beside the point, but I prefer the old format for the wiki. For instance, using the hot example of late:
Whitford (GA, WashU PhD)
I think this style is less clunky and more informative. Also, it's more in line with the look and feel of other academic job wikis.
8:38 Andy, sorry to burst your bubble, but 2 articles in JoP and one coauthored piece on dutch politics in AJPS 1999 does not constitute all over major political science journals.
As to students, does any one have any names?
7:09, your ignorance is appalling. 8:38 wasn't Whitford. I posted it on the basis of this: http://arches.uga.edu/%7Eaw/WhitfordCV.pdf
Slightly more impressive than you give him credit for.
This blog will improve when there are fewer pissy ABDs and know-it-all (i.e., know-nothing) junior faculty on here.
Five superstars in the PA/PP job market this year (with number of offers by now):
Pitts (3)
Avellaneda (2)
Godwin (2)
Kioko (2)
Rubin (2)
Interesting, 7:27, when I was just thinking the same thing about stodgy, old curmudgeons on their last pontifical leg before emeritus status...
Isn't the point of an anonymous blog so that all of us can be a little pissy or curmudgeons, without the glare of our status??? (or lack there of)
This is about rumors, not status. So why don't we all relax.
Superstars (updates):
Pitts (3)
Avellaneda (3)
Godwin (2)
Kioko (2)
Rubin (2)
Isn't Godwin off the market now? Wiki says accepted at Texas AM
Dang with all the schools left on the wiki here, it looks like there are going to be a lot of plane trips for people in the spring.
Look at how many schools are left that hope to hire.
21/12/07 1:10 PM. Isn't that mostly case in PA in recent years? Flying out finalist in January?
I thought so, maybe I am wrong
I think most of the top schools move at the front of the market, and the others move a little bit later, but there seem to be some exceptions to that...
Avellaneda accepted UNC Charlotte's offer.
Did Rubin accept at OSU?
No. She accepted at Albany.
So many offers were declined...
If you have only one job to take and get multiple offers...it is not shocker that so many are declined.
Any word on what the Martin School (U of KY) will do? I heard second-hand they've only hired one person so far but have interviewed for 3 or 4 lines.
No one wants to work at Kentucky.
Re: 9:02
Not true. Kentucky made some nice offers, and I've talked to a number of interviewees who spoke very highly of the department. Other institutions were just more competitive in different ways.
I'd be suspicious of Kentucky. When word gets out that funding may have been pulled for a position, it has to make you wonder what the resource environment looks like. If a whole position gets pulled, what does that say for salary increases, travel funding, and other necessities?
Aside from the resources problem, Kentucky suffers from a problem of identity. It's more of a place for quasi-economists who address public problems than it is a place for public management people.
a big surprise that two USC offers were turned down...
11:22, see 11:15 for an explanation. USC has the same problem.
In addition, USC has a serious cost of living problem. You mgiht do reasonably as well in salary at another R1 school and be able to buy a 1500 square foot house for $200K instead of $800K.
OSU's Glenn is a great place for public management people, and it has no cost of living problem. Yet it has two offers declined and the third one is also at risk since that candidate also got an offer from the No.1 Maxwell...
If all offers are declined, will a school lower its expectation or close its search?
Hard to say. *Usually*, quality programs will close the search until next year.
Please! No ABD Left Behind!
OSU's problem is its struggle for an identity. Chaos is not a good place for junior faculty.
OSU is relatively small program in a big big school. It was an institute of sorts with a faculty. That is changing quickly and is likely to change in the next few years with Charlie Wise as its new director. Again, the faculty is quite quite small and some may just see places like Syracuse as more established (clearly). I think OSU would be a great great job because of cost of living, the potential for great resources, and because of the change in leadership.
re: 3/11 11;22am
I was surpised with two declined USC offers too. But one of them went to American (Washington DC) and it made a sense to me.
I would love to be in LA but some friends of mine will go extra miles to stay in east coast and it is DC. (of course, there will be other factors but...)
Re; 3/1/08 4:52 PM
Ditto! No ABD Left Behind! :)
Why those schools on the front wave (or any other schools) in PA/PP close the search, rather than doing short term contract (1-2 yrs)?
Just curious.
My friend in another discpline (Social science) told me there seemed to be a more opportunities such as visiting assitant professor or something like that for a year or two for ABDs in his discpline.
There's no point in offering a short-term contract (i.e., shorter than what everyone else in the department was given) because no candidate would take one. Candidates aren't idiots, and offering a shorter-than-usual-term contract would not be appealing at all. It's sort of like marrying your 4th choice and putting an escape clause into the prenup.
Re: 3:36 PM
Short-term contracts (visiting APs, post-docs) are pretty common in all natural sciences and some social sciences (econ, business). I do not understand why it could not apply to pa/pp. Fresh Ph.D.s aren't idiots, but when they are unable to give a strong signal to buyers (e.g., publications), they have to consider some sub-prime offers. Visiting AP should be a better title than ABD.
Short term contracts should be the norm. If you do well, you get renewed. If you don't, you get fired (even after you are tenured). Free market and labor mobility rule.
The PA/PP market really needs something like AEA's "Job Market Scramble" web site.
Ok 11:25, let's say you're a public policy person in a political science department, and your chair has just changed to a political theorist who despises applied work. Despite an exceptional publication record, you get the boot. Or, let's say you're a very good public finance person in a PA department, but you're a quantitative methodologist and your new chair is a qualitative person. He thinks your work is mind numbing number crunching, so you get the boot again.
The bottom line is that there are countless scenarios where "doing well" can't be measured objectively. Protections against intellectual disagreements are important in academia. I'm not saying tenure necessarily "works," but this "free market" nonsense is sophomoric and ill informed.
Can you post a link to the job market scramble site?
AEA's "Job Market Scramble" web site, which usually starts in March each year.
http://www.aeaweb.org/joe/scramble/
Description:
Occasionally prospective employers of new Ph.D. economists exhaust their candidates before hiring someone during the winter/spring "job market" period. Similarly, new economics Ph.D.s seeking a job sometimes find that all of the prospective employers with whom they have interviewed have hired someone else before they have secured an appointment.
To address these problems, the AEA has established a "Job Market Scramble" web site to facilitate communication between employers and job seekers in late spring. In March, employers that continue to have an open position previously advertised in Job Openings for Economists (JOE) may post a short notice of its availability (with a link to the JOE listing). Similarly, new or recent economics Ph.D. job seekers still looking for a position may post a short announcement of their continued availability, with a link to their application materials (C.V., papers, references). The web site will open for viewing to those who have listed a position or availability soon after listings close. There is no charge for the "Job Market Scramble."
You wouldn't want to work under a primate who gives you a hard time simply because he disagrees with you anyway. So if the hypothetical person in question is any good and ends up fired in spite of a "brilliant" publication record, he or she'll be able to find a good job someplace else, and quickly.
Or, maybe I am simply upset by a couple of tenured folks in my department who have not published anything, zilch, nicht, nada, in the 5 or so years I've been around.
2:46 PM, Maybe you know what happened to Rochester's public policy program around ten years ago. However, if one is strong enough, he/she should be able to find a decent place somewhere else and pursue more successful careers, either within or outside academia. The free market still works.
If the free market "works so well", why would schools ever offer tenure?
Of course, the answer is that tenure is part of a wage package, just like salary or moving costs. Qualified candidates can demand and receive it. Long-term contracts are a result of the free market.
The Job Scramble idea is a very good one. Hopefully someone with some influence in APPAM/ASPA/NASPAA is paying attention.
Long-term contracts could be an outcome of free market. But the lack of short-term contracts is not an outcome of free market. In other words, the lack of short-term contracts could be harmful to both recruiters and job seekers in this market. How many schools/ABDs will end up with nothing this year?
It would be great if one or all of APPAM/ASPA/NASPAA/PMRA/ARNOVA/ABFM could join with annual meetings of ASSAs. There are too many major conferences in PA/PP., which is really inefficient.
Most long-term contract holders don't want their schools to increase the number of short-term contracts. Having more short-term contracts also damages long-run reputation (the oddities being "professors of practice" positions, which are never held by recent ABDs).
RE: 5/1/08 4:04 PM
"Having more short-term contracts also damages long-run reputation". Why does the field of pa/pp hold such a bias? There are tons of short-term contracts in medicine, sciences, business, etc. Are those schools less respected compared with pa/pp schools? The answer might be "No".
In KSG associate professor is not a tenured position. Does this hurt KSG's reputation or its recruiting capacity?
Probably not, but KSG is such an outlier that it makes no sense to use it as evidence for much of anything.
There may be one too many conferences in PA/PP, but we definitely don't want to consolidate too much. More conferences = more exposure for more of us. As an example of the alternative, the Gods (and their grad students) of PMRA already complain that too many of us mere mortals are able to attend its bi-annual conference. Imagine how little voice we'd have if they controlled a larger share.
Poli Sci Blog Accepted Offers list indicates taht Whitford accepted teh Indiana offer.
http://bluwiki.com/go/Polisci0708
Departments that decide not to fill positions now but to wait for the next year (hoping to "get lucky", perhaps?) strike me as irrational. How are things going to be different next year? The pool will be exactly the same, give or take some noise.
(Of course, not being able to get their own priorities straight - that's another story.)
Many schools use a high-risk hiring strategy this year. Georgetown's public management offer goes to a candidate who also holds offers from Princeton and Yale and UPenn. Several decent/major PA schools have most or all offers declined.
If previous years had similar experiences, I have to say the pa/pp job market seems to be very inefficient...
5/1/08 4:33 PM, Small markets are more likely to be manipulated/controlled by a small bunch of people who pretend to be the "Gods".
The Georgetown offer does seem to be high risk, but it also just seems strange. Sure, Lerman is an exceptional political scientist, but is she public management?
5:00 - some schools decide to postpone their hire to the following year thinking that they'll get their act together more quickly and move at the front of the market. I think we see general evidence of this, with interviews and offers creeping more and more into October/November. I am not sure if they think there will be a lot more candidates, but I think they probably hope to be more strategic/fast about their hire.
No, Lerman is not "mainstream" public management, but then again, neither is Georgetown for the most part.
In fact some schools are quite flexible in hiring since they are not in desparate need of new faculty. The demand for MPA/MPP education is not as strong as that in business schools. If they cannot get the best candidates they want, it won't hurt a lot to wait for another year.
7:29 -- there are people trying to establish an entire Public Service Academy (which I do recognize is for undergraduates). While you assert that business schools are upping MPA/MPP programs, that doesn't necessarily diminish the importance of education geared toward work in the public or non-profit sectors, nor the importance of hiring the best possible candidates for those programs. The demand is clearly there.
7:41 PM, The demand for excellent public service people is clear and clearly small. This country needs only ONE President and 50 Governors. That's why people have been fighting so hard in IOWA recently. B-schools are upping public affairs schools not only in numbers of students but also in salaries of graduates and faculty.
I also doubt the importance of hiring the best possible faculty candidates for those MPA/MPP programs. If they are important, why do some provosts pull the funding for new positions? It's not unheard that some pp/pa programs were even cut for different reasons in recent years. This fact may also explain why the use of short-term contracts is less popular in pa/pp schools. The demand for short-term researchers (post-docs) or short-term teachers (Visiting APs) is relatively weak there.
8:07, you are horrendously ignorant. There are more than 87,000 local governments. This figure does not even include all special purpose governments. Then there are the hundreds of thousands of non-profits.
No demand for public service indeed.
What's more, B schools have tons of internal funding and aren't at the mercy of provosts. The fact that PP/PA departments aren't internally funded by corporate tools with money to burn after racking up illustrious careers in such exciting and important fields as sales or supply-chain management is no mark against public service.
The idea that there is a market for everything and that less money = less significance is patently false and ignorant. This country needs public service, and the *service* component is precisely why public managers and those who train them sacrifice a bit of material wealth.
8:19 PM, you are talking about the "demand for public service", which is not the same as "the demand for excellent public service people". If you really want to make a comparison, you need to do research on the numbers in business sector. I might be "horrendously ignorant", but those who choose to pursue a 6-digit salary package with a top MBA diploma in hand are not.
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