The Public Policy/Administration Jobs Blog provides a forum for job-seekers seeking jobs in public affairs, public policy, and public management programs.
I agree completely, and I'd also like to echo the previous poster's encouragement that applicants press their letter writers. 80% of current applications incomplete.
There is really starting to be significantly more PM candidates than the market demands. Junior candidates in PM should seriously consider specializing on non-profit or financial management.
I see this as more of a shortage in non-profit and finance, which doesn't mean there are too many in PM... just that there are too few interested in non-profit and finance.
There are definitely some doctoral programs that haven't exactly embraced NPM or have just paid lip service to things nonprofit. That may be reducing the number of job candidates with NPM expertise. But I think the main driver of the demand right now is the expansion of many graduate programs to include more NPM courses.
To 12:26 PM: Apply and find out for yourself rather than listening to an unknown person. The opportunity cost of applying is pretty low...and what is the worst thing that can happen? You don't get the job.
I'd like to expand on the last poster's comment. Being one of a dying breed, please allow me to explain a little something to the new crop of job marketeers: Things aren't as easy as it seems.
The ones who attend the top programs see their classmates and professors' students snag tenure track positions at other highly ranked programs like it's nothing. This is great, but understand that this is the exception in academia. In almost every other discipline, you're more likely to get a part-time gig or a job at a community college. A tenure-track position at even the smallest, least distinguished research university is considered a grand slam. In my home discipline, political science, you can be on the market for years before you find a situation that truly makes you happy.
This is not to chastise or make a "you've got it easy" argument, but just understand that you actually do have to apply to everything. I don't care how good a program you attend. You can't just selectively pick and choose where to apply.
Well, lucky for us, we're not political scientists. Our program has put out several tenure-track folks who worked hard for the position. Never once was there any part-time or community college type positions considered. This isn't to say we're oh-so-high-and-mighty, put we have good students who work hard to make things happen. Perhaps we're in alternate realities?
You missed his/her point entirely. The point: We're in a favorable "alternate reality" for now, but it's in no way guaranteed to remain that way and we should be cognizant of how things go down in other disciplines. A good thing today is no excuse to be lax in the job hunt.
I don't like the insititution-envy I see here. That can easily lead to new scholars who don't work as hard as they should for a job because it's too easy to blame anything else for their failure to get a job (they didn't come from a top institution, their chair doesn't like them, etc. ad nauseum).
Speaking as someone who graduated from a top institution specializing in a hot field and got a job at a top institution (yes, I know, I'm not normal), this is what I know is true from my warped POV.
Four reasons why it's not just about the school you graduate from:
1. Because all candidates work hard for every job, no matter where they come from. The top graduates are published and smart. Maybe they even can teach.
2. Because it's about labor market dynamics too. I got job offers from 40% of the institutions I applied to. My spouse graduated from a top institution in a humanities field and got job offers from 5% of the institutions. Supply and demand favor the job candidate in our field.
3. Because from the hiring institution's POV, it's first and foremost about fit. The rule of thumb about job hunting still stands: it's possible to get some offers where you don't expect them, and not to get some offers where you do expect them.
4. Because you still have to be somebody others want to work with. So even if you graduate from a top school, I don't want to hire you if you're, well, someone who sits around blaming others for what goes wrong in your life.
So, yes, apply everywhere you think you should and stop psyching yourself out.
For what it is worth, there are a lot of talented smart people in programs of all shapes and ranks. After serving on a few committees I think it is safe to safe that hiring committees are often a black box and can be quite idiosyncratic. For those of you applying for jobs, I encourage you to apply any place that you believe will support you and your work. If it is a top ranked program great, if it is not that is fine if that is the best choice for you. Please remember that this is your career and you have to decide what is best. If people are honest they will tell you that there are great scholars flourishing at schools that are not "highly ranked" and people at top ranked programs who are miserable because they are living their lives based on what is expected of them and not what they really want to do.
I don't know if I came from a top ranked program or if I work at one now. I will let some one else decide that. I just try to do work that excites me. This may or may not be a minority point of view, but I think it is important for people entering the job market to hear it.
I wonder if 1:27 can expand his/her "public service announcement". Florida is in rough economic shape. No doubt. I'm sure funding issues are hitting all the Florida schools pretty hard. Not sure that is a reason to avoid a good school if you plan to commit for several years.
At the University of Arizona, the Dean of the Eller College of Management has proposed that all PA degrees be phased out and that public and non-profit studies be made a track in the business program.
The MPA and Ph.D. in PA programs would be totally eliminated. It's not clear what would happen to faculty.
The proposal: http://provost.arizona.edu/files/150%20Proposed%20Reorganization%20involving%20the%20Eller%20College%20of%20Management%27s%20Schoolof%20Public%20Policy%20and%20Other%20Departments.pdf
While the proposal says the faculty would stay, would they be tenured for publishing in PA/policy journals? All this to save $500K? Everything in here, including the mere wording itself, shows just how little respect the business world has for us--none.
Either way the guy's gotten what he wants. What doctoral student or faculty member in his or her right mind will go somewhere they know they aren't wanted? Usually all you have is a suspicion of being unwanted.
I have several friends teaching there, and my understanding is that the business side faculty have no respect for or understanding of the pa/pp research. Now, in the name of financial crisis, they...
Government bailouts business in real world, while business facutly want to delete pa in academia. Amazing.
From the Arizona proposal: "A very strong case can be made, in fact, that the most effective public servants will be those who are inspired by government or non-profit service, but who have solid training and skills in accounting, finance, marketing, management information systems, entrepreneurship and the other advanced courses that business students take."
Yes, we need students who will be able to build sturdy, ethical, and efficient financial centers. Make sure they have the same skills as the folks at Enron, Worldcom, Arthur Andersen, Tyco, Bear Sterns, Lehman...
The elimination of the program at Arizona would be tragic for a state that is notorious for producing some of the most corrupt politicians and public servants in recent memory.
Arizona's PA programs are among the best in the country, and the faculty are among the most distinguished. That the Dean of Eller had no care for how this would be construed in our world speaks volumes of the lack of respect for our field. He probably doesn't even know it would be missed As a previous poster said, it's doubly ironic in a world in which business is constantly bailed out by government.
And finally, who are they to kick out the PA faculty? When any student is hunting for a top flight public management education, masters or doctoral, Arizona is a must-consider. I'm doubting the same could be said for the MBA program.
The Eller MBA launched two programs in Phoenix, supposedly because of a lack of applicants to the program in Tucson. It's just a rumor, but hey...fits the venue.
The Arizona situation is looking up in some ways. There is a rival proposal to create a new school of Government and Public Affairs from them, polisci and maybe other units.
It apparently has much more support on campus than that of the Eller Dean's bizarre proposal.
A friend of mine interviewed at KU a few years ago, and the salary was quite subpar for the time. Anecdotal evidence is that this remains the case. Also, KU doesn't negotiate salary.
I'm sure someone will say "But it's Kansas, you don't need a large salary." In my mind, you need a large salary to overcome the fact that it *is* Kansas.
It's all good. For every individual who feels entitled (for no apparent reason)to be paid a lot just to keep the disdain for Kansas/Podunk under wraps, there are 5 adults who, while perhaps have different priorities, do not share the urge to inform anonimous strangers about their lifestyle preferences.
Does anyone have any idea where I can access historical information on placements of doctoral students from the various schools or at least the top 10 PA schools? Thanks!
Is the Kansas job really a political science position? The verbage in the ad is decidedly political science-y, and they list a Ph.D. in public administration or political science as required. Generally, several disciplines are listed for PA jobs.
What's "political science-y" about expertise in organizational design, networks, or governance? If this is Llorens' replacement, he is a PA/Policy scholar.
To 12:36 you are so right: I am not sure why people are being so tight lipped this year it almost makes no sense to come on here. There are many of us who have applications pending and who have not heard anything. I for one I am not asking for names per se just something like "X University bringing in 3 candidates next week" that way if I am not one of the three I can start planning for next year.
A friend tells me that he/she (trying to guard identity here a little) has an interview at California State University-San Bernardino. Don't know how many more other candidates are being flown in.
Just read through a bunch of comments and want to add two responses (way after the fact)...
- I am one of the many people who turned down a job at the Martin School at Kentucky over the last three years. My decision was for a bunch of reasons specific to my research and not a negative reflection on the Martin School. In many ways, it was a fantastic job offer. I would encourage anyone to apply there.
- RE jobs in PA/PP. Based on my experience on the market and a few other loose-lipped peers, it seems that policy schools often offer 65-80K while political science departments 55-75K. Of course, very top schools offer more.
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1,292 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1201 – 1292 of 1292I agree completely, and I'd also like to echo the previous poster's encouragement that applicants press their letter writers. 80% of current applications incomplete.
There is really starting to be significantly more PM candidates than the market demands. Junior candidates in PM should seriously consider specializing on non-profit or financial management.
I see this as more of a shortage in non-profit and finance, which doesn't mean there are too many in PM... just that there are too few interested in non-profit and finance.
There are definitely some doctoral programs that haven't exactly embraced NPM or have just paid lip service to things nonprofit. That may be reducing the number of job candidates with NPM expertise. But I think the main driver of the demand right now is the expansion of many graduate programs to include more NPM courses.
By NPM, I assume you mean Nonprofit Management and not New Public Managment, correct?
You'd think we'd be able to make the distinction, but we take our acronyms seriously here. :)
FYI:
http://www.poliscijobrumors.com/
now has a pubic policy section.
University of Colorado, Denver has 5 opening position. Do you think they consider ABD?
To 12:26 PM: No. They prefer more experienced ones.
To 12:26 PM: Apply and find out for yourself rather than listening to an unknown person. The opportunity cost of applying is pretty low...and what is the worst thing that can happen? You don't get the job.
If you aren't applying to every job you're willing to take, you're not trying hard enough and probably won't get a job.
I'd like to expand on the last poster's comment. Being one of a dying breed, please allow me to explain a little something to the new crop of job marketeers: Things aren't as easy as it seems.
The ones who attend the top programs see their classmates and professors' students snag tenure track positions at other highly ranked programs like it's nothing. This is great, but understand that this is the exception in academia. In almost every other discipline, you're more likely to get a part-time gig or a job at a community college. A tenure-track position at even the smallest, least distinguished research university is considered a grand slam. In my home discipline, political science, you can be on the market for years before you find a situation that truly makes you happy.
This is not to chastise or make a "you've got it easy" argument, but just understand that you actually do have to apply to everything. I don't care how good a program you attend. You can't just selectively pick and choose where to apply.
Well, lucky for us, we're not political scientists. Our program has put out several tenure-track folks who worked hard for the position. Never once was there any part-time or community college type positions considered. This isn't to say we're oh-so-high-and-mighty, put we have good students who work hard to make things happen. Perhaps we're in alternate realities?
You missed his/her point entirely. The point: We're in a favorable "alternate reality" for now, but it's in no way guaranteed to remain that way and we should be cognizant of how things go down in other disciplines. A good thing today is no excuse to be lax in the job hunt.
Fair enough, but you also missed part of my point. NO ONE in our program is lax because they know just that...they can't afford to be.
I don't like the insititution-envy I see here. That can easily lead to new scholars who don't work as hard as they should for a job because it's too easy to blame anything else for their failure to get a job (they didn't come from a top institution, their chair doesn't like them, etc. ad nauseum).
Speaking as someone who graduated from a top institution specializing in a hot field and got a job at a top institution (yes, I know, I'm not normal), this is what I know is true from my warped POV.
Four reasons why it's not just about the school you graduate from:
1. Because all candidates work hard for every job, no matter where they come from. The top graduates are published and smart. Maybe they even can teach.
2. Because it's about labor market dynamics too. I got job offers from 40% of the institutions I applied to. My spouse graduated from a top institution in a humanities field and got job offers from 5% of the institutions. Supply and demand favor the job candidate in our field.
3. Because from the hiring institution's POV, it's first and foremost about fit. The rule of thumb about job hunting still stands: it's possible to get some offers where you don't expect them, and not to get some offers where you do expect them.
4. Because you still have to be somebody others want to work with. So even if you graduate from a top school, I don't want to hire you if you're, well, someone who sits around blaming others for what goes wrong in your life.
So, yes, apply everywhere you think you should and stop psyching yourself out.
I believe it has finally been articulated why this blog is detrimental.
For what it is worth, there are a lot of talented smart people in programs of all shapes and ranks. After serving on a few committees I think it is safe to safe that hiring committees are often a black box and can be quite idiosyncratic. For those of you applying for jobs, I encourage you to apply any place that you believe will support you and your work. If it is a top ranked program great, if it is not that is fine if that is the best choice for you. Please remember that this is your career and you have to decide what is best. If people are honest they will tell you that there are great scholars flourishing at schools that are not "highly ranked" and people at top ranked programs who are miserable because they are living their lives based on what is expected of them and not what they really want to do.
I don't know if I came from a top ranked program or if I work at one now. I will let some one else decide that. I just try to do work that excites me. This may or may not be a minority point of view, but I think it is important for people entering the job market to hear it.
Also, please forgive the typos--for what that is worth as well.
Public Service Announcement: Stay as far away from the Florida university system as possible. That is all.
why?
I wonder if 1:27 can expand his/her "public service announcement". Florida is in rough economic shape. No doubt. I'm sure funding issues are hitting all the Florida schools pretty hard. Not sure that is a reason to avoid a good school if you plan to commit for several years.
At the University of Arizona, the Dean of the Eller College of Management has proposed that all PA degrees be phased out and that public and non-profit studies be made a track in the business program.
The MPA and Ph.D. in PA programs would be totally eliminated. It's not clear what would happen to faculty.
The proposal:
http://provost.arizona.edu/files/150%20Proposed%20Reorganization%20involving%20the%20Eller%20College%20of%20Management%27s%20Schoolof%20Public%20Policy%20and%20Other%20Departments.pdf
OK, the link doesn't fit. Go to http://provost.arizona.edu/white_paper_proposals and find "Portney" in your browser.
While the proposal says the faculty would stay, would they be tenured for publishing in PA/policy journals? All this to save $500K? Everything in here, including the mere wording itself, shows just how little respect the business world has for us--none.
Either way the guy's gotten what he wants. What doctoral student or faculty member in his or her right mind will go somewhere they know they aren't wanted? Usually all you have is a suspicion of being unwanted.
I have several friends teaching there, and my understanding is that the business side faculty have no respect for or understanding of the pa/pp research. Now, in the name of financial crisis, they...
Government bailouts business in real world, while business facutly want to delete pa in academia. Amazing.
From the Arizona proposal: "A very strong case can be made, in fact, that the most effective public servants will be those who are inspired by government or non-profit service, but who have solid training and skills in accounting, finance, marketing, management information systems, entrepreneurship and the other advanced courses that business students take."
Yes, we need students who will be able to build sturdy, ethical, and efficient financial centers. Make sure they have the same skills as the folks at Enron, Worldcom, Arthur Andersen, Tyco, Bear Sterns, Lehman...
The elimination of the program at Arizona would be tragic for a state that is notorious for producing some of the most corrupt politicians and public servants in recent memory.
I truly hope they can avoid that.
Perhaps at Arizona they should trim Dean Portney's $417,640 salary...65.8% of which is funded by the state of Arizona.
My knowledge is that as an environmental policy guru Dean Portney has been very sympathetic to the pa/pp side.
Did you read the white paper?
Not sympathetic enough.
Arizona's PA programs are among the best in the country, and the faculty are among the most distinguished. That the Dean of Eller had no care for how this would be construed in our world speaks volumes of the lack of respect for our field. He probably doesn't even know it would be missed As a previous poster said, it's doubly ironic in a world in which business is constantly bailed out by government.
And finally, who are they to kick out the PA faculty? When any student is hunting for a top flight public management education, masters or doctoral, Arizona is a must-consider. I'm doubting the same could be said for the MBA program.
The Eller MBA launched two programs in Phoenix, supposedly because of a lack of applicants to the program in Tucson. It's just a rumor, but hey...fits the venue.
USC offer went to Bertelli?
Any news on CU-Denver or Rutgers-Newark?
Rutger's is going to have people coming in soon for job talks...
Rrumor has that Ruters is flying in "SanjayPandey"
why the quotes around Sanjay's name?
Sanjay is interviewing at Rutgers this week.
I didn't mean to mean anything by " ". just accident.
Who else is invited to Rutgers then?
Whom ever owns this blog needs to do something about the set up of the comments...we cannot see them any more
I asked a friend who constantly seems to be in the know re: Rutgers and he wouldn't tell me...jerk! :)
USC has 7 tt jobs available now.
The Arizona situation is looking up in some ways. There is a rival proposal to create a new school of Government and Public Affairs from them, polisci and maybe other units.
It apparently has much more support on campus than that of the Eller Dean's bizarre proposal.
Where can we view that proposal?
OK, I found it. Ridiculous that such a thing had to happen, but as long as the programs exist, PA is better for it.
Portney is nothing but a snake for proposing as he did without so much as consulting the PA faculty.
wiki says someone was offered the LSU job...any ideas on who?
The LSU job was offered and was accepted by the applicant.
That is a darn silly thing to say.
Jared Llorens (Kansas, Georgia PhD) accepted the LSU job.
When the heck did Penn State start a school of international affairs?
I just confirmed the rumor. Not my job to say who it was. Now you know.
University of Kansas is opening a tenure track position to replace Llorens. Assistant level. Details forthcoming.
A friend of mine interviewed at KU a few years ago, and the salary was quite subpar for the time. Anecdotal evidence is that this remains the case. Also, KU doesn't negotiate salary.
I'm sure someone will say "But it's Kansas, you don't need a large salary." In my mind, you need a large salary to overcome the fact that it *is* Kansas.
Does anyone know if the scheduled interviews at Texas Tech are for the associate/full position or the assistant faculty position?
Wait, why the in the world would Sanjay P.interview at Rutgers after he spent years trying to get out of... Rutgers???
He interviewed at Ruthers Newark. His previous experience was at Rutgers Camden. As different as night and day if you look at the web sites.
31/10/08 6:18 PM: How much did KU offer to your friend? $55K/9 months?
U. of South Carolina canceled its search because of budgetary constraints.
It's all good. For every individual who feels entitled (for no apparent reason)to be paid a lot just to keep the disdain for Kansas/Podunk under wraps, there are 5 adults who, while perhaps have different priorities, do not share the urge to inform anonimous strangers about their lifestyle preferences.
Bummer about SC.
Obviously Kansas is good enough for some really good scholars. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it doesn't have to be...
And you can't beat the cost of living.
anyone here interested in positions outside this country? what are the pros and cons?
Any word on Colorado Denver?
Any APPAM reports?
Does anyone have any idea where I can access historical information on placements of doctoral students from the various schools or at least the top 10 PA schools?
Thanks!
I'm sure those schools would be happy to provide it to you... some even put it up on their websites
What's going on with all those jobs at Southern California?
Is the Kansas job really a political science position? The verbage in the ad is decidedly political science-y, and they list a Ph.D. in public administration or political science as required. Generally, several disciplines are listed for PA jobs.
What's "political science-y" about expertise in organizational design, networks, or governance? If this is Llorens' replacement, he is a PA/Policy scholar.
Pitt is listed as having short listed a position... do we know if this is one or both of the positions they have out there?
Any word on Ill-Springfield, still listed as phone interviews? Macalester?
I think you are better off reading the wiki than asking questions about specific jobs. There is not a lot of information sharing this year.
springfield has asked a few folks to fly out
To 12:36 you are so right: I am not sure why people are being so tight lipped this year it almost makes no sense to come on here. There are many of us who have applications pending and who have not heard anything. I for one I am not asking for names per se just something like "X University bringing in 3 candidates next week" that way if I am not one of the three I can start planning for next year.
A friend tells me that he/she (trying to guard identity here a little) has an interview at California State University-San Bernardino. Don't know how many more other candidates are being flown in.
To 3:41 thank you for this information. There are many of us out there anxiously waiting for that phone call so anything helps.
No more public management candidates are scheduled to interview at Rutgers Newark.
Re Macalester above, is position now canceled?
Just read through a bunch of comments and want to add two responses (way after the fact)...
- I am one of the many people who turned down a job at the Martin School at Kentucky over the last three years. My decision was for a bunch of reasons specific to my research and not a negative reflection on the Martin School. In many ways, it was a fantastic job offer. I would encourage anyone to apply there.
- RE jobs in PA/PP. Based on my experience on the market and a few other loose-lipped peers, it seems that policy schools often offer 65-80K while political science departments 55-75K. Of course, very top schools offer more.
Rutgers Newark has mad an offer.
7:45 - Wow, Newark moves fast ! Who got the offer ?
Texas Tech's junior position was filled.
SUNY Albany policy and governance searches are on hold pending budget issues. Note, the searches are not canceled, just paused at this point.
I received a letter form Macalester saying the position had been cancelled.
Two things:
1. I was a state budget analyst for 10 years. There is no such thing as a "pause." The position will die.
2. Guys, it's time to migrate to the new thread. There are 2 comments there right now.
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