The Public Policy/Administration Jobs Blog provides a forum for job-seekers seeking jobs in public affairs, public policy, and public management programs.
I don't know if it's an incorrect analysis as much as it is an ambiguous one. What does it mean to produce good research, have good faculty, and provide good placements? For me, the criteria would be more specific: 1. Articles published in top-notch peer-reviewed journals (JPART/JPAM/to a lesser extent PAR) 2. Reputable faculty who are active in the primary professional associations in the field (APPAM/AEA/APSA/PMRA/to a MUCH lesser extent ASPA) 3. Doctoral students who place well at top universities
I don't think the Clinton School scores well (or at all) on these three measures.
Poor attempt at getting a rise out of the PA folks by saying there are no powerhouse PA programs. NYU isn't even in the same category as Syracuse, Indiana or UGA...who, despite my field not being PA, are most definitely powerhouses. I can only assume that the genius who called them garbage is an economist at some overrated policy school, or at the very least, some program that is perennially disrespected...tough luck.
I really don't think "powerhouse" schools matter that much. Those of us that have been around long enough know that there are clearly some great schools out there, like Indiana, Kansas, Minnesota, Wisconsin, USC, Syracuse and Georgia....things change, people change, goals change. The only thing most "powerhouse" schools have going for them is history (plus really great faculty now and then) and reputation. Any program out there has the potential of producing good people if they take themselves seriously enough.
I can just tell there are men in the room when you get in these pissing contests about who has a better school or a more relevant discipline. Be humble?? Be humble that you pull down a salary greater than 4/5 of the world's population, get to participate in the wonderful profession of teaching, and get paid simply to teach YOURSELF more every year. Just try to learn the right things, 'kay boys?
Very relevant, 12:23. It's always great to start making assumptions about the identity of posters along these lines. Perhaps somebody would like to make some guesses about race next?
Next time you get in a huff because somebody assumes your bad mood has something to do with PMS, remember your comment about men pissing. Karma sucks.
I'm sure he or she could have extended the list to include Berkeley and Texas...they are great programs, but tell me, in the past five years, what faculty have they produced in current PA or PP schools? Not nearly the volume of faculty that Indiana and Georgia have produced in just the last two...
Yes, and adding to 1:00's comment... Let's start calling female faculty "girls," like she is calling men "boys." I'm sure that will go over really well.
"some great schools out there" was the phrase I believe. Kansas is definitely not a powerhouse, but ask any PA person and they will tell you it is a great school...
Stay tuned, everyone, for the latest from U.S. News on the new rankings of public affairs programs. They will become available on-line on March 28.
Any guesses as to whether or not there will be changes in rankings? Will Maxwell stay number 1? Will Chicago move up (not particularly high in the past)?
Frankly, it's too bad that we pay any attention to these, but as much as everyone likes to dis the rankings, prospective students and deans care.
Didn't those three Chicago grads all work with the same person, who isn't even there anymore? I am challenged to name one other person of repute (besides Larry Lynn) from the Harris School. Ok, Jim Heckman, but is he in the Harris School?
Boys, speak softly and carry a big d***. (This is what this blog turns out to be about anyway.) Here's a crazy idea - there is no much need to post here now that the job season is over.
Take your third-rate high school gender studies analysis somewhere else. There must be some self-important 17 year old girls who would be very interested to hear your innovative thoughts on this topic.
Spare the rest of us - particularly your trailer trash language.
Can we get back to the "Public Policy Job Rumors" and away from the gender bashing? If you really want the "man hate women" "women hate man" steam of thought to carry on, why don't we create another comment section about that... So how about them rumors? the season is not over yet, there are far too many positions open for that to be the case.
12/3/08 5:12 AM is correct. There are still some left. The season is not over yet. Let's hear some rumors. I heard Brown's post-doc positions are all offered and pretty much done.
Brockport person - if you interviewed there some time ago and haven't heard from them, they probably made the offer to someone else. Your best source of information is to contact the chair of the search under the guise of expressing you are still very interested and available.
Moulton, I think will be a decent hire for OSU, though she's got a somewhat unorthodox research interest, but one that I think will become increasingly important.
24/3/08 5:22 PM The market season is almost over. It's pretty normal to see all these vague rumors, anxiety and some childish behaviors... No need to create another blog.
It's understandable that IU and UGA students are very strong in the pa/pp job market, but GSU&Gatech guys are also competitive this year. Really amazing!
I vote for the new blog. I don't think the person who runs this blog checks it anymore - if s/he does, you never see anything from him/her. I am sick of the behavior on here, and I'd love to see a blog that was moderated to keep personal jabs off the board.
Moulton is going to be an outstanding scholar. Charlie Wise knows what he's doing. I'm assuming 6:29 either doesn't know Moulton, or is expressing sour grapes.
Pathetic comments like 6:29 and even worse (11/3/08 7:05 PM) is why I'm offering to start a new blog. I'll just do it, and people can choose to follow or not.
Against my better judgment, here is another suggestion: take steps to institutionalize and formalize the flow of job-related information. For example, integrate "search status" information in a system (e.g. publicservicecareers.org) that comprises all job postings anyway. Technically it's a non-issue, as long as the practice is accepted by the relevant professional associations. Yes, I know all the objections to such transparency, and I don't buy any of them. You can't beat the market, and I won't even go into the others...
New blog will solve nothing. Indeed, I find it very sad that a medium that could not possibly be any less credible has gained such "importance".
Go Kansas. They shouldn't even be accredited, let alone ranked 7. Did you know that students who express *any* interest aside from city management cannot get into the full-time MPA program there? I know this to be empirical fact, based on years of hopelessly writing letters for excellent students who were interested in city management but did not sign a blood oath to do it for life.
If Kansas wants to offer an MCM, fine. But the MPA is not legitimate.
I thoroughly love these Kansas people (or this Kansas person) who keeps interjecting how wonderful Kansas is. We get it. It's a good school...one of MANY. Though I honestly don't expect it to ever get much higher than 7.
Yes, really. From what I can see, Georgia is No. 4 overall (tied with Princeton, above Cal Berkeley), No. 2 Public Management Administration, No. 2 Public Finance and Budgeting, No. 11 Nonprofit Management, and No. 16 Public Policy Analysis.
If this makes Georgia a house of "poor folks" in need of a "party line," then the rest of us should close up shop.
The fact that Georgia can do what Syracuse, Indiana, Harvard and Princeton do without the huge endowments is phenomenally impressive to me and shows that they are truly anything but "poor folks."
I have nothing but respect for their department as the scholarship is impressive and placement record over the past few years is remarkable. Keep your eye on them and look for good things to happen in the future. I have met a handful of their current students and can assure you that they will continue to impress.
In terms of rankings, what to they really matter? Princeton and Harvard may be top five schools, but they do not do what Syracuse, Indiana and Georgia do in terms of quality scholarship.
29/3/08 9:55 PM, I would add Berkeley to your list. Actually, how many papers published in top pa journal like PAR, JPART and JPAM are from these three schools (H,P,UCB)?
Wow -- seems like I set off all of your fire alarms. My apologies. One of my graduate degrees is from Georgia, so my query about "the poor people at Georgia" really was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, and actually intended to be sympathetic. They have invested a lot in their PA&P program during the past four years; I was as surprised as I am sure they are at the US News rankings.
My apologies to those whom I offended -- but in the future, perhaps you could offer your colleagues the benefit of the doubt. You would if you knew my name and I yours.
I'm with 29/3/08 11:43 PM... what have Harvard, Princeton, and UCB done for the PA scholarly speaking? I guess that is why US News is a ranking of MPA program quality and not department quality or scholarship contribution. If that were the case they certainly would not be at the top.
I agree. Harvard is only rated high because so many policymakers and high level bureaucrats go there to obtain, in essence, an executive-based graduate degree. I'm sorry, but there's no real theoretical development taking place there.
Speaking of theoretical development, is ASPA as an institution dying? Attendance at the conf. in Dallas seemed way low and dominated by older scholars. Is there another PA institution I should join that is made up of newer scholars and newer scholarship?
Public Management Research Association (PMRA) fits the bill, but don't expect to get on the bi-annual conference program unless you're on faculty at, or an alumna/us from, Syracuse, Georgia, Arizona, Kansas, or TAMU.
31/3/08 8:48 AM, as a doctoral student whose proposals were rejected twice by PMRA, I think this is an inconvenient truth for many doctoral students who are not from those "powerhouses".
31/3/08 7:15 AM, there are tons of decent articles published by scholars at KSG, WWS, and Goldman School. Yet they focus more on decent journals in economics or political science, or other top field journals in health, environment, education, development, defense, security, science policy, and more. I guess they just do not care about PAR-style junk journals.
Kansas, UNC Charlotte, Arizona State and SUNY Albany had some representation in Tucson as well if I'm not mistaken, not to mention a handful of British and Dutch scholars...
PMRA has some room to grow...it's been around less than 20 years and has had a total of nine conferences so far...give it a chance.
I agree with someone's earlier assessment of Kansas. It doesn't belong in the same league as those other schools. It teaches ONE THING: city management. It's an employment agency; not an MPA program. And the publication rate out of KU is nowhere near the other ones listed here.
3/31 8:48, I disagree with your assessment that PMRA is a closed club. Sure, the older scholars (and the PMRA/JPART editorial boards) tend to represent the Big Five, but there was representation from lots of state universities: Ohio State, Florida State, Wayne State, Cleveland State, Pittsburgh, NC State, South Carolina.....
I hear you -- I find the PMRA a little too clubby as well. I find JPART even more so. But as the PhDs from the top five schools filter out to other institutions -- and, hallelujah, as they attain the seniority to influence who gets to attend -- I expect you will see greater participation from other schools. Just be patient.
Here we go again... how about top six or seven? Truly...we know who the biggest JPART/PMRA people and schools are...does it really need to be spelled out again?
I realize I am a bit late on the board, but Stephanie Moulton is an incredible addition for Ohio State in terms of research, teaching, and as a faculty member. Great hire for their school.
All right, folks, it's been fun, but can we ease off a bit with the pretense, bitterness, sarcasm, and irony and get back to something constructive? I mean some of this is fun and all, but we're starting to slouch toward Gomorrah (aka Political Science Blog).
Does anyone know who left U. Conn. to go to Maxwell this year? U. Conn. just sent out a late position notice, so if you're still looking, they're taking applications.
Graham was clearly the best choice...yes, a damn good hire indeed.
All this talk about who is better is mostly inane. IU has produced some great people and so too has Georgia. The programs are very diverse in many aspects, yet they are both high caliber in terms of education and scholarship. Their placements over the past few years combined reflects this.
"Mark Stater is leaving UGA for a small teaching college in CT..."
He is going to Trinity College, which despite being labeled "a small teaching college in CT" is one of the better liberal arts colleges in the country. It might not be a research institution, but it's a damn good school.
Rankings are useles: on general quality criteria everything is roughly the same in the top 10, and everything is roughly the same in the tier beyond the top 10. To celebrate being # 2 vs # 4 is as ridiculous as celebrating being # 40 vs # 50. Did I say it is ridiculous?
18/4/08 8:23 AM, ranking is important if you know how business school deans are troubled by small changes in their USNEWS ranking every year. A change from #50 to #40 means a lot. A change from #4 to #2 would be a tremendous success (like MIT Sloan vs Stanford GSB).
I would like to believe that (for schools other than business schools where emphasis understandably is primarily on prestige in the business community, easily measured through career outcomes for the MBAs), but I don't think it's possible in the realm of more useless social sciences and prof. programs. Hence, the bitter (and amusing) controvercies about who's got it and who does not...
The biggest problem with evaluating academic "placements" is that few, if any, follow the "rational economic decision-maker" model. The very notion that candidates simply choose the "best" college/university is false on its face. Some are looking to be near home. Others may need to keep their visas. Still others may not like searing hot summers or snow-filled winters.
And, this is not even to mention that the "academic market" barely resembles anything one would call a market in the firstplace. Why we continue to accept this economic paradigm is a mystery.
^ I agree. This should hopefully encourage reflection among the rankings snobs about how little a few steps in the list can mean relative to a host of other factors. Get over it.
"Sure, both Indiana and Georgia have generally great placements, but also some flops - South Dacota? UNLV? Florida international?"
Who cares if you think these are flops? They're jobs that were applied for by the candidates, and therefore there must have been some interest in them.
Some times a flop is a personal choice. Maybe they want to live in a particular area...like South Dakota. While that may not have the cache of a top 10 school, the placements are not always because of a "flop"
The places infamously dubbed flops above are just run-of-the-mill decent universities. Such placements can only be conceived as flops in the battle at the "top" about "who's best", and this seems to include "who's got the greatest placements".
This is not an invalid indicator in the long term. The school I got my degree from used to think very highly of itself, except that most graduates ended up in trully bad places (nothing like the class acts discussed here). I am not blaming it on the placements alone, but surely it hasn't helped our standing in the rankings, which sunk a great deal just a couple of years later.
As a doctoral student close to completion, I am very sad that I did not take any course in game theory, advanced econometrics(time-series), and social network analysis. I spent too much time in reading classic books and PAR articles. Now it is not easy for me to read many articles published in APSR, AJPS, AER, JPE, and so on. I wonder whether anyone here shares my sadness.
How many programs have someone on the faculty who knows anything about social network analysis? It's not that widespread yet (although I would hope that the case would be different in org theory, at least).
A large number of full professors in pa/pp can run regressions but have no knowledge of advanced game theory, advanced econometrics,structural equation modeling, social network analysis, and so on. Yet they are teaching doctoral core courses and decide what courses should be in the program.
9:06, that's just silly. Do faculty need to have direct experience in all of those methods to be competent? I think what you're after (and I agree with you) is the right outlook from faculty about the benefits of a broader methods education. So ask for it! But keep in mind that some of the methods you mentioned belong to other disciplines. A school's ability to get doctoral students training in these methods does not rest on its ability to provide them WITHIN the PA/PP doctoral program, but on how it supports students who want to take methods electives in other programs (econ, sociology). I based my choice of doctoral programs on how flexible the faculty were about the things that mattered to me. I also never expected anyone to hand me what I needed -- I figured out how to go out and get it.
People make career decisions based on a number of factors. The US News rankings is only one of them, and frequently not even the most important. For just about any other career, a move from Syracuse to Boston wouldn't make any of us blink.
Suffolk is great. Granted, not the most fabulous school in the world, but it's in Boston, there's an abundance of scholarly activity in the vicinity, and frankly it was obviously his personal choice. Maxwell is a great school, but its environs would surely make anyone flee...even to Suffolk, NC State, and Wisconsin...
Richard Florida is a moron, but it does not change the fact that no matter how good a school, if it is in the middle of nowhere, with no amenities - and most are - it's a hard sell, especially for young faculty. Hence, some urban schools may do a lot better than the rankings would predict in terms of hires in the years to come. And this should not be surprising - very few people (outside of academia) would be willing to ruin the other aspects of their life for a job.
I very much welcome this trend of faculty actually going to geographic areas that make them happy. Maybe, with time, we'll normalize and become more like other professionals.
As a piece of advice to Ph.D. students and younger faculty, however, be careful in expressing just how much a location means to you. I was too careless in this regard in my first position, and I was taken for granted as a result. I had to move to send a clear signal to the market that I was indeed capable of mobility.
What are your thoughts on post-doc positions? They are common in other disciplines and am wondering how they are viewed in the public policy academic arena.
I think a postdoc in public policy is good if you can land a really great one (e.g., Harvard, Brown, Columbia) or you feel you aren't yet ready to conduct research with a tenure clock breathing down your neck. Otherwise, you won't gain much.
Now that I think about it, the whole idea is somewhat dubious. I have seen folks complete one of these "really great" postdocs only to be placed in a bottom-50 program.
With the market willing to hire fresh meat at AP level, what is the point of post-doc?? Some disciplines require that you have one before joining the faculty ranks, but PA and PP are not such disciplines. It just doesn't make sense to go in that direction for most folks these days. I might have wanted to do it if it allowed me to work on the French Rivera, but no luck in that area for me.
The bottom line is that postdocs exist in fields where, after earning the Ph.D., you just don't know enough to be a successful independent researcher. PA/Policy certainly isn't there yet, though economics and (to a lesser extent) political science are heading in that direction.
I heard the School of Public Affairs and Arizona State University pays its faculty one month's salary for each pub. How can they possibly afford/sustain this?
That's not quite the way it works here at ASU, but there are definite perks that have supposedly been the idea of the Dean of the College of Public Programs. We're right in the thick of the Michael Crow era, which is truly a publish or perish regime, but it seems to be working. Visit the SPA website and you'll see that pubs are coming out of there quickly. As of just a few years ago, APs at the School of Public Affairs weren't getting paid that much, so I think the additional pay for pubs is well worth it.
ASU also has a pretty sweet maternity/paternity leave policy (think it was about 3 months leave w/pay), which for those of us in our breeding years is quite a nice perk.
The bonus system is absolutely special. The paternity/maternity thing is more common, though. We get automatically course release for the semester plus tenure clock stoppage.
I have a slightly different take on post-docs. I think that a good post-doc (I don't quite have 'good' defined in my head yet, but it should obviously includes independent research) can be beneficial. Schools may be willing to hire "fresh meat" as APs, but a postdoc adds at least one year (or longer) to acheive publications prior to the additional pressures of other responsibilities (ie, committee meetings, student advising, etc). Unfortunately, I have seen and heard of too many 'fresh' APs who perish rather than publish because of these time constraints.
I agree with the previous comments that postdocs may be dubious, but I think it largely depends on the individual's situation.
As for not getting a job within one of the top 50 schools.. a good PhD program or post-doc may help pave the way, but ultimately it depends on the individual's performance.
Post-doc is for people who could not find an AP position as fresh Ph.D. If he/she cannot get one or two papers accepted/published in decent journals during the one or two year post-doc period, it will be a very negative signal when he/she reenter the job market.
That isn't true. Some postdocs are prestigious enough that people will choose them over tenure-track jobs. Examples include the RWJF Health Policy and Health and Society Scholars.
1,292 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 801 – 1000 of 1292 Newer› Newest»Re Clinton School,
1) They hired an associate professor.
2) what makes a school a powerhouse?
I think it is good research, good faculty, and good placements for students.
3) Is this an incorrect analysis? What else is needed to be a powerhouse? What are your objections to Clinton, out of curiosity?
There are no powerhouse PA departments.
9:10 is most definitely correct. Maxwell, Indiana SPEA, UGA, NYU Wagner... All garbage. There exists no such thing as a powerhouse PA department.
I don't know if it's an incorrect analysis as much as it is an ambiguous one. What does it mean to produce good research, have good faculty, and provide good placements? For me, the criteria would be more specific:
1. Articles published in top-notch peer-reviewed journals (JPART/JPAM/to a lesser extent PAR)
2. Reputable faculty who are active in the primary professional associations in the field (APPAM/AEA/APSA/PMRA/to a MUCH lesser extent ASPA)
3. Doctoral students who place well at top universities
I don't think the Clinton School scores well (or at all) on these three measures.
The Clinton school has a lot of experience.
lol Love it.
Poor attempt at getting a rise out of the PA folks by saying there are no powerhouse PA programs. NYU isn't even in the same category as Syracuse, Indiana or UGA...who, despite my field not being PA, are most definitely powerhouses. I can only assume that the genius who called them garbage is an economist at some overrated policy school, or at the very least, some program that is perennially disrespected...tough luck.
All "experience" gets you is a hot SES post at OPM or a state government cabinet job. The academic policy community couldn't care less.
I think 10:22 probably interviewed at one of those "garbage" schools, didn't get the job, and now has sour grapes.
So what are the prospects for the job market next year/s? This year was abnormally good, I don't see how anything similar could be sustained.
I disagree, I think the next two years will still be really good...don't forget, last year was even better than this year.
So who do you all see as the Powerhouse schools (current or has-been)?!
I really don't think "powerhouse" schools matter that much. Those of us that have been around long enough know that there are clearly some great schools out there, like Indiana, Kansas, Minnesota, Wisconsin, USC, Syracuse and Georgia....things change, people change, goals change. The only thing most "powerhouse" schools have going for them is history (plus really great faculty now and then) and reputation. Any program out there has the potential of producing good people if they take themselves seriously enough.
Re 1:17
like Indiana, Kansas, Minnesota, Wisconsin, USC, Syracuse and Georgia....
Just curious why Goldman and LBJ (UT Austin) are not on this list. They produce successful doctoral candidates, and have respected faculty
Just puzzled
Re 1:17
like Indiana, Kansas, Minnesota, Wisconsin, USC, Syracuse and Georgia....
Just curious why Goldman and LBJ (UT Austin) are not on this list. They produce successful doctoral candidates, and have respected faculty
Just puzzled
Be humble...we are all slaves of economists and political scientists...There is no "powerhouse" in pa or pp.
I can just tell there are men in the room when you get in these pissing contests about who has a better school or a more relevant discipline. Be humble?? Be humble that you pull down a salary greater than 4/5 of the world's population, get to participate in the wonderful profession of teaching, and get paid simply to teach YOURSELF more every year. Just try to learn the right things, 'kay boys?
Very relevant, 12:23. It's always great to start making assumptions about the identity of posters along these lines. Perhaps somebody would like to make some guesses about race next?
Next time you get in a huff because somebody assumes your bad mood has something to do with PMS, remember your comment about men pissing. Karma sucks.
I'm sure he or she could have extended the list to include Berkeley and Texas...they are great programs, but tell me, in the past five years, what faculty have they produced in current PA or PP schools? Not nearly the volume of faculty that Indiana and Georgia have produced in just the last two...
Yes, and adding to 1:00's comment... Let's start calling female faculty "girls," like she is calling men "boys." I'm sure that will go over really well.
How is it that Kansas always makes it into these powerhouse arguments? Two placements, people. Two.
"some great schools out there" was the phrase I believe. Kansas is definitely not a powerhouse, but ask any PA person and they will tell you it is a great school...
Another name not on the Powerhouse list is Chicago (HSPPS). Shouldn't it get some credit for contributions to faculty?
Wisconsin is on the list and does not even have a formal doctoral program.
Any info. on Georgia State U?
Thank you,
6:11 has a GREAT point...Heinrich, Bertelli, and Hill that immediately come to mind...
Stay tuned, everyone, for the latest from U.S. News on the new rankings of public affairs programs. They will become available on-line on March 28.
Any guesses as to whether or not there will be changes in rankings? Will Maxwell stay number 1? Will Chicago move up (not particularly high in the past)?
Frankly, it's too bad that we pay any attention to these, but as much as everyone likes to dis the rankings, prospective students and deans care.
Did College of Charleston hire an MPA Director or was the search canceled?
I heard the news that College of Charleston hired an MPA Director.
Didn't those three Chicago grads all work with the same person, who isn't even there anymore? I am challenged to name one other person of repute (besides Larry Lynn) from the Harris School. Ok, Jim Heckman, but is he in the Harris School?
Boys, speak softly and carry a big d***. (This is what this blog turns out to be about anyway.)
Here's a crazy idea - there is no much need to post here now that the job season is over.
Utterly tasteless.
Take your third-rate high school gender studies analysis somewhere else. There must be some self-important 17 year old girls who would be very interested to hear your innovative thoughts on this topic.
Spare the rest of us - particularly your trailer trash language.
Can we get back to the "Public Policy Job Rumors" and away from the gender bashing? If you really want the "man hate women" "women hate man" steam of thought to carry on, why don't we create another comment section about that...
So how about them rumors? the season is not over yet, there are far too many positions open for that to be the case.
12/3/08 5:12 AM is correct. There are still some left. The season is not over yet. Let's hear some rumors. I heard Brown's post-doc positions are all offered and pretty much done.
Did College of Charleston hire an MPA Director or was the search canceled?
11/3/08 6:48 AM
----------------------------
They hired Kendra Stewart (EKU, USC Ph.D.)
Any words on Brown's post-doc offers?
Any word on Brockport???
Brockport person - if you interviewed there some time ago and haven't heard from them, they probably made the offer to someone else. Your best source of information is to contact the chair of the search under the guise of expressing you are still very interested and available.
Great choice by C of C. Stewart is top-notch.
VaTech has sent out rejection letters. Do we know who/if they hired anyone?
I also heard OSU made another offer for its public management job.
I met Stewart at conferences. Extremly pleasant personality and sharp presentation, in my view.
this blog is starting to get really boring...are we finally realizing that it might be quite pointless and we have other lives to attend to after all?
I know at least V tech hired one junior faculty (heard at the ASPA Dallas).
Scoff!
Any news on who interviewed for the Denny Chair at the Humphrey School?
We hired a very cute guy!
Did that "cute guy" have a name?
OSU has hired.
who did OSU hire
OSU hired Stephanie Moulton (Indiana SPEA - ABD) for Jan 2009
The expectations have been adjusted, I see.
Care to elaborate on what you mean, 6:29?
No.
For a good time, call Leroy at (800) 556-8912.
Vague rumors, axe-grinding, childish innuendo, and everything in between are pointless and taking on an increasingly large share of the posts on here.
If I were to start-up a *moderated* Public Policy Jobs blog, would most of you migrate to it? If so, I'll get it going within a week or so.
24/3/08 5:22 PM
I would. I think that is a good idea. But also I am curious to know the current blog administrator is willing to do that.
Moulton, I think will be a decent hire for OSU, though she's got a somewhat unorthodox research interest, but one that I think will become increasingly important.
Two questions:
1) Who did UNLV make offers to?
2) Has Warigia Bowman accepted a position at either Georgia Tech or Ole Miss? Seems like Tech would be the clear cut choice...
24/3/08 5:22 PM
The market season is almost over. It's pretty normal to see all these vague rumors, anxiety and some childish behaviors... No need to create another blog.
It's understandable that IU and UGA students are very strong in the pa/pp job market, but GSU&Gatech guys are also competitive this year. Really amazing!
I vote for the new blog. I don't think the person who runs this blog checks it anymore - if s/he does, you never see anything from him/her. I am sick of the behavior on here, and I'd love to see a blog that was moderated to keep personal jabs off the board.
Moulton is going to be an outstanding scholar. Charlie Wise knows what he's doing. I'm assuming 6:29 either doesn't know Moulton, or is expressing sour grapes.
Does anyone know what happened with the Georgetown job? Did they decide not to fill it?
Also, what is up with the SUNY Albany Policy jobs? Have their candidates turned the offers down?
Pathetic comments like 6:29 and even worse (11/3/08 7:05 PM) is why I'm offering to start a new blog. I'll just do it, and people can choose to follow or not.
Bravo. I'll follow.
Against my better judgment, here is another suggestion: take steps to institutionalize and formalize the flow of job-related information. For example, integrate "search status" information in a system (e.g. publicservicecareers.org) that comprises all job postings anyway. Technically it's a non-issue, as long as the practice is accepted by the relevant professional associations. Yes, I know all the objections to such transparency, and I don't buy any of them. You can't beat the market, and I won't even go into the others...
New blog will solve nothing. Indeed, I find it very sad that a medium that could not possibly be any less credible has gained such "importance".
Any news on the WVU job? Have they made a decision?
Go to the website of USNEWS for the Public Affairs Ranking 2009.
Kansas is No. 7 now!
Go Kansas. They shouldn't even be accredited, let alone ranked 7. Did you know that students who express *any* interest aside from city management cannot get into the full-time MPA program there? I know this to be empirical fact, based on years of hopelessly writing letters for excellent students who were interested in city management but did not sign a blood oath to do it for life.
If Kansas wants to offer an MCM, fine. But the MPA is not legitimate.
I thoroughly love these Kansas people (or this Kansas person) who keeps interjecting how wonderful Kansas is. We get it. It's a good school...one of MANY. Though I honestly don't expect it to ever get much higher than 7.
It's just so obvious, which makes it sad.
So what are the poor folks at Georgia saying about the US News rankings? What's the party line?
People are idiots. Really.
Yes, really. From what I can see, Georgia is No. 4 overall (tied with Princeton, above Cal Berkeley), No. 2 Public Management Administration, No. 2 Public Finance and Budgeting, No. 11 Nonprofit Management, and No. 16 Public Policy Analysis.
If this makes Georgia a house of "poor folks" in need of a "party line," then the rest of us should close up shop.
The fact that Georgia can do what Syracuse, Indiana, Harvard and Princeton do without the huge endowments is phenomenally impressive to me and shows that they are truly anything but "poor folks."
I have nothing but respect for their department as the scholarship is impressive and placement record over the past few years is remarkable. Keep your eye on them and look for good things to happen in the future. I have met a handful of their current students and can assure you that they will continue to impress.
In terms of rankings, what to they really matter? Princeton and Harvard may be top five schools, but they do not do what Syracuse, Indiana and Georgia do in terms of quality scholarship.
Yeah, and speaking of top five schools, do you think Harvard or Princeton would ever hire a Maxwell, SPEA, or UGA grad???
Harvard and Princeton aren't going to hire anybody without a disciplinary PhD. That rules out all three.
29/3/08 9:55 PM, I would add Berkeley to your list. Actually, how many papers published in top pa journal like PAR, JPART and JPAM are from these three schools (H,P,UCB)?
Wow -- seems like I set off all of your fire alarms. My apologies. One of my graduate degrees is from Georgia, so my query about "the poor people at Georgia" really was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, and actually intended to be sympathetic. They have invested a lot in their PA&P program during the past four years; I was as surprised as I am sure they are at the US News rankings.
My apologies to those whom I offended -- but in the future, perhaps you could offer your colleagues the benefit of the doubt. You would if you knew my name and I yours.
Amen. I get you.
I'm with 29/3/08 11:43 PM... what have Harvard, Princeton, and UCB done for the PA scholarly speaking? I guess that is why US News is a ranking of MPA program quality and not department quality or scholarship contribution. If that were the case they certainly would not be at the top.
I agree. Harvard is only rated high because so many policymakers and high level bureaucrats go there to obtain, in essence, an executive-based graduate degree. I'm sorry, but there's no real theoretical development taking place there.
Speaking of theoretical development, is ASPA as an institution dying? Attendance at the conf. in Dallas seemed way low and dominated by older scholars. Is there another PA institution I should join that is made up of newer scholars and newer scholarship?
Public Management Research Association (PMRA) fits the bill, but don't expect to get on the bi-annual conference program unless you're on faculty at, or an alumna/us from, Syracuse, Georgia, Arizona, Kansas, or TAMU.
31/3/08 8:48 AM, as a doctoral student whose proposals were rejected twice by PMRA, I think this is an inconvenient truth for many doctoral students who are not from those "powerhouses".
31/3/08 7:15 AM, there are tons of decent articles published by scholars at KSG, WWS, and Goldman School. Yet they focus more on decent journals in economics or political science, or other top field journals in health, environment, education, development, defense, security, science policy, and more. I guess they just do not care about PAR-style junk journals.
In other words, they are not PA schools.
So, we'll just count them out of the PA rankings, then?
31/3/08 11:27 AM, everyone will be happy with that.
Kansas, UNC Charlotte, Arizona State and SUNY Albany had some representation in Tucson as well if I'm not mistaken, not to mention a handful of British and Dutch scholars...
PMRA has some room to grow...it's been around less than 20 years and has had a total of nine conferences so far...give it a chance.
31/3/08 11:32 AM I agree.
Would this, then, be a more appropriate top four if we were to consider scholarship and faculty in a pseudo-ranking?
1. Syracuse
2. Indiana
3. Georgia
4. Kansas
I agree with someone's earlier assessment of Kansas. It doesn't belong in the same league as those other schools. It teaches ONE THING: city management. It's an employment agency; not an MPA program. And the publication rate out of KU is nowhere near the other ones listed here.
31/3/08 11:43 AM, why USC is not listed as NO. 4 PA school in your pseudo-ranking?
Probably because 31/3/08 11:43 AM is the mysterious KU booster.
It seems that insulting an academic is so easy that it is not even fun.
USC? Didn't they ditch anything administration-related years ago?
At least USC would hire someone from the pseudo-top three.
3/31 8:48, I disagree with your assessment that PMRA is a closed club. Sure, the older scholars (and the PMRA/JPART editorial boards) tend to represent the Big Five, but there was representation from lots of state universities: Ohio State, Florida State, Wayne State, Cleveland State, Pittsburgh, NC State, South Carolina.....
I hear you -- I find the PMRA a little too clubby as well. I find JPART even more so. But as the PhDs from the top five schools filter out to other institutions -- and, hallelujah, as they attain the seniority to influence who gets to attend -- I expect you will see greater participation from other schools. Just be patient.
How do you define "Big Five"?
Here we go again... how about top six or seven? Truly...we know who the biggest JPART/PMRA people and schools are...does it really need to be spelled out again?
New topic: Minnowbrook III. Who's interested in attending?
Me, but there's probably no way I'd get accepted. Boy, it would sure be nice if the faculty worked with students here...
The Wizard of Oz?
1/4/08 3:27 PM -- Why, professor? You lacking ideas? :)
I realize I am a bit late on the board, but Stephanie Moulton is an incredible addition for Ohio State in terms of research, teaching, and as a faculty member. Great hire for their school.
Jesus Christ, I am an incredible teacher, researcher, and faculty member too. Honestly!
That was just weird.
2:47, whoever you are...
Collegiality Lesson # 27: don't steal the limelight from someone else. Give credit where it is due. Be generous with your praise.
Collegiality Lesson #28: Nobody likes a whiner.
So, what did we learn?
Also, I recommend toning down the irony a bit to match the IQ levels of the audience.
All right, folks, it's been fun, but can we ease off a bit with the pretense, bitterness, sarcasm, and irony and get back to something constructive? I mean some of this is fun and all, but we're starting to slouch toward Gomorrah (aka Political Science Blog).
R.I.P.
At least the whole Whitford conversation died down...
I guess most people are off the market now. The 08-09 market should be even better...
People went home to get their shoe shine boxes.
Got UT Austin rejection letter last week.
Political Science blog says Whitford is staying at Georgia.
Anyone know what's happening at Indiana SPEA regarding their dean search?
Formal announcement from Indiana next week.
So, what's the informal then? Who were the candidates for the job?
Does anyone know who left U. Conn. to go to Maxwell this year? U. Conn. just sent out a late position notice, so if you're still looking, they're taking applications.
And Smeeding is leaving Maxwell for the La Follette School.
Bob Bifulco is leaving UConn.
10:05, you can find the names of the IU SPEA Dean candidates on the IU SPEA website.
John Graham from RAND is the new IU SPEA dean for those who were interested.
Now Indiana is certainly better than Georgia.
I don't think anyone disputed that.
Word has it two juniors are leaving UGA -- anyone verify?
I don't know if IU is now unquestionably "better" than Georgia, but that's a damn good hire.
Mark Stater is leaving UGA for a small teaching college in CT... don't know who the second person, if there is one, that is leaving.
Graham was clearly the best choice...yes, a damn good hire indeed.
All this talk about who is better is mostly inane. IU has produced some great people and so too has Georgia. The programs are very diverse in many aspects, yet they are both high caliber in terms of education and scholarship. Their placements over the past few years combined reflects this.
"Mark Stater is leaving UGA for a small teaching college in CT..."
He is going to Trinity College, which despite being labeled "a small teaching college in CT" is one of the better liberal arts colleges in the country. It might not be a research institution, but it's a damn good school.
I heard that Georgia is losing a nonprofit person. Is Chao Guo going to another school?
Rankings are useles: on general quality criteria everything is roughly the same in the top 10, and everything is roughly the same in the tier beyond the top 10. To celebrate being # 2 vs # 4 is as ridiculous as celebrating being # 40 vs # 50. Did I say it is ridiculous?
Sure, both Indiana and Georgia have generally great placements, but also some flops - South Dacota? UNLV? Florida international?
Foreign students take the first job they can find lest they lose their visas. A symptom of our insanely inept immigration system
Guo is leaving UGA?
18/4/08 8:49 AM, an inconvenient truth in the era of globalization.
No, Guo is not leaving UGA. It must be the other non-profit person listed on their website. Her name is Keely Jones.
18/4/08 8:23 AM, ranking is important if you know how business school deans are troubled by small changes in their USNEWS ranking every year. A change from #50 to #40 means a lot. A change from #4 to #2 would be a tremendous success (like MIT Sloan vs Stanford GSB).
I would like to believe that (for schools other than business schools where emphasis understandably is primarily on prestige in the business community, easily measured through career outcomes for the MBAs), but I don't think it's possible in the realm of more useless social sciences and prof. programs. Hence, the bitter (and amusing) controvercies about who's got it and who does not...
I'll take being a "useless" professor over being a chump who's paid to make someone else rich any day.
18/4/08 2:02 PM, How about being a chump AP with $165K/9 months plus 1/9x2 summer stipend?
Ha-ha-ha. Also, if you have to insult others' choices to defend your own, are they really choices?
Your comments are really rude, 18/4/08 8:31 AM.
The biggest problem with evaluating academic "placements" is that few, if any, follow the "rational economic decision-maker" model. The very notion that candidates simply choose the "best" college/university is false on its face. Some are looking to be near home. Others may need to keep their visas. Still others may not like searing hot summers or snow-filled winters.
And, this is not even to mention that the "academic market" barely resembles anything one would call a market in the firstplace. Why we continue to accept this economic paradigm is a mystery.
They follow the "rational" model. We just don't know what is in their utility function.
^
I agree. This should hopefully encourage reflection among the rankings snobs about how little a few steps in the list can mean relative to a host of other factors. Get over it.
Does anybody know what happened at Univ. of Illinois - Springfield? Did they hire someone? it seems all their APs are trying to leave.
"Sure, both Indiana and Georgia have generally great placements, but also some flops - South Dacota? UNLV? Florida international?"
Who cares if you think these are flops? They're jobs that were applied for by the candidates, and therefore there must have been some interest in them.
Some times a flop is a personal choice. Maybe they want to live in a particular area...like South Dakota. While that may not have the cache of a top 10 school, the placements are not always because of a "flop"
The places infamously dubbed flops above are just run-of-the-mill decent universities. Such placements can only be conceived as flops in the battle at the "top" about "who's best", and this seems to include "who's got the greatest placements".
This is not an invalid indicator in the long term. The school I got my degree from used to think very highly of itself, except that most graduates ended up in trully bad places (nothing like the class acts discussed here). I am not blaming it on the placements alone, but surely it hasn't helped our standing in the rankings, which sunk a great deal just a couple of years later.
Syracuse's placements over the past few years have been less than stellar and they're still No. 1. Oh well.
As a doctoral student close to completion, I am very sad that I did not take any course in game theory, advanced econometrics(time-series), and social network analysis. I spent too much time in reading classic books and PAR articles. Now it is not easy for me to read many articles published in APSR, AJPS, AER, JPE, and so on. I wonder whether anyone here shares my sadness.
You can always learn things on your own. People have been doing it for years.
How many programs have someone on the faculty who knows anything about social network analysis? It's not that widespread yet (although I would hope that the case would be different in org theory, at least).
A large number of full professors in pa/pp can run regressions but have no knowledge of advanced game theory, advanced econometrics,structural equation modeling, social network analysis, and so on. Yet they are teaching doctoral core courses and decide what courses should be in the program.
9:06, that's just silly. Do faculty need to have direct experience in all of those methods to be competent? I think what you're after (and I agree with you) is the right outlook from faculty about the benefits of a broader methods education. So ask for it! But keep in mind that some of the methods you mentioned belong to other disciplines. A school's ability to get doctoral students training in these methods does not rest on its ability to provide them WITHIN the PA/PP doctoral program, but on how it supports students who want to take methods electives in other programs (econ, sociology). I based my choice of doctoral programs on how flexible the faculty were about the things that mattered to me. I also never expected anyone to hand me what I needed -- I figured out how to go out and get it.
Mary Tschirhart is leaving Syracuse for NC State. Wow, nice going in Raleigh. Maxwell people, please keep us informed about plans to replace her.
Who got the Georgia State (Public Management)offer? Accepted?
Anybody know who got the Goldman School offer? Heard that Jens Ludwig and Jesse Rothstein were candidates.
Last year Heinrich got the offer and turned them down.
Rumor has it that GSU did two rounds of interviews and did not find a good candidate...
Yoon Jik Cho, from Indiana University-Bloomington (SPEA), was offered and accepted the G. State job in public management.
The school of public affairs at IU-Bloomington has some faculty that were trained in and use ego-centric network analysis in their research.
What is going on in the Syracuse-PA department? Smeeding, Tschirhart and Al Roberts are leaving. Last one to leave, turn off the lights.
Where the heck is Al Roberts going?
Al Roberts is going to Suffolk U.
?!!?!
That would be insane. Literally.
People make career decisions based on a number of factors. The US News rankings is only one of them, and frequently not even the most important. For just about any other career, a move from Syracuse to Boston wouldn't make any of us blink.
Plus, Suffolk University's campus is beautiful, and as a private school in the heart of Boston, I would assume the students are very good.
As someone who once went to Syracuse... I can understand why someone would want to run.
Syracuse offered their endowed chair to George Boyne
Ditto to 28/4/08 6:29 AM. Maxwell school was just great. but the city was just too small and a bit boring.
Suffolk is great. Granted, not the most fabulous school in the world, but it's in Boston, there's an abundance of scholarly activity in the vicinity, and frankly it was obviously his personal choice. Maxwell is a great school, but its environs would surely make anyone flee...even to Suffolk, NC State, and Wisconsin...
Richard Florida is a moron, but it does not change the fact that no matter how good a school, if it is in the middle of nowhere, with no amenities - and most are - it's a hard sell, especially for young faculty. Hence, some urban schools may do a lot better than the rankings would predict in terms of hires in the years to come. And this should not be surprising - very few people (outside of academia) would be willing to ruin the other aspects of their life for a job.
I would have bet my life that no post on here would ever begin with, "Richard Florida is a moron." Let this be a lesson to gamblers.
I agree with the 2 posts above.
Boyne would be a good addition to the Maxwell faculty. They need something with the loses this year.
Boyne would be a good addition to ANY faculty, but surely he'd only leave Syracuse in the next few years...
I very much welcome this trend of faculty actually going to geographic areas that make them happy. Maybe, with time, we'll normalize and become more like other professionals.
As a piece of advice to Ph.D. students and younger faculty, however, be careful in expressing just how much a location means to you. I was too careless in this regard in my first position, and I was taken for granted as a result. I had to move to send a clear signal to the market that I was indeed capable of mobility.
You had to move to prove a point? I don't buy it.
I buy it. Anyone who has worked for a petty and vindictive department chair or dean buys it.
What the heck ever happened with the UC-Irvine policy searches? They were supposed to be hiring for several positions?
Where is Mary Tschihart going?
The grocery store.
Tschihart is going to NC State
What are your thoughts on post-doc positions? They are common in other disciplines and am wondering how they are viewed in the public policy academic arena.
Did Irvine even get their MPP program approved??
I think a postdoc in public policy is good if you can land a really great one (e.g., Harvard, Brown, Columbia) or you feel you aren't yet ready to conduct research with a tenure clock breathing down your neck. Otherwise, you won't gain much.
Now that I think about it, the whole idea is somewhat dubious. I have seen folks complete one of these "really great" postdocs only to be placed in a bottom-50 program.
With the market willing to hire fresh meat at AP level, what is the point of post-doc?? Some disciplines require that you have one before joining the faculty ranks, but PA and PP are not such disciplines. It just doesn't make sense to go in that direction for most folks these days. I might have wanted to do it if it allowed me to work on the French Rivera, but no luck in that area for me.
The bottom line is that postdocs exist in fields where, after earning the Ph.D., you just don't know enough to be a successful independent researcher. PA/Policy certainly isn't there yet, though economics and (to a lesser extent) political science are heading in that direction.
More precisely, certain fields in political science.
I heard the School of Public Affairs and Arizona State University pays its faculty one month's salary for each pub. How can they possibly afford/sustain this?
That's not quite the way it works here at ASU, but there are definite perks that have supposedly been the idea of the Dean of the College of Public Programs. We're right in the thick of the Michael Crow era, which is truly a publish or perish regime, but it seems to be working. Visit the SPA website and you'll see that pubs are coming out of there quickly. As of just a few years ago, APs at the School of Public Affairs weren't getting paid that much, so I think the additional pay for pubs is well worth it.
ASU also has a pretty sweet maternity/paternity leave policy (think it was about 3 months leave w/pay), which for those of us in our breeding years is quite a nice perk.
The bonus system is absolutely special. The paternity/maternity thing is more common, though. We get automatically course release for the semester plus tenure clock stoppage.
I have a slightly different take on post-docs. I think that a good post-doc (I don't quite have 'good' defined in my head yet, but it should obviously includes independent research) can be beneficial. Schools may be willing to hire "fresh meat" as APs, but a postdoc adds at least one year (or longer) to acheive publications prior to the additional pressures of other responsibilities (ie, committee meetings, student advising, etc). Unfortunately, I have seen and heard of too many 'fresh' APs who perish rather than publish because of these time constraints.
I agree with the previous comments that postdocs may be dubious, but I think it largely depends on the individual's situation.
As for not getting a job within one of the top 50 schools.. a good PhD program or post-doc may help pave the way, but ultimately it depends on the individual's performance.
Post-doc is for people who could not find an AP position as fresh Ph.D. If he/she cannot get one or two papers accepted/published in decent journals during the one or two year post-doc period, it will be a very negative signal when he/she reenter the job market.
That isn't true. Some postdocs are prestigious enough that people will choose them over tenure-track jobs. Examples include the RWJF Health Policy and Health and Society Scholars.
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